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Train Wrecks: why do they happen in the technical discussions?

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
It's "martial" arts.

Not that I'm being argumentative about your spelling, atrocious as it is.
Lol. Yes, that was bad.
Using "marital arts" might have been a better error. But how do you know I wasn't referring to the training of Sheriffs?

Needs training in "marshal arts":
Brian-Dennehy-as-Sheriff-Teasle-in-First-Blood-action-movie-freak.jpg

First Blood, 1982 (The start of Rambo)
 

skibob

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Posts
4,268
Location
Santa Rosa Fire Belt
I will admit that I didn't read much of the last 5 pages. However, I mostly avoid this subforum for exactly that reason.

But I have very strong feelings about why it is. A lot of things like ego surely play into it some. But in my opinion the biggest problem is that its a professional discourse. There is a profession involved. People get paid. Their status in their profession, among friends, at home, is attached to it. They ARE it. When professional communities evolve, a language that circumscribes a set of practices evolves with them. Or multiple and sometimes divergent, as our PSIA, CSIA, and European whatever friends on here could readily illustrate. And Mavericks evolve (Harb for example) with a different language circumscribing a different set of practices.

Throw all those things in a pot. Then throw in a bunch of non-professional experienced and intelligent people. Wait, I'm not done yet. Because this last "group" isn't a group at all. They are a bunch of people who use non-professional language, what linguists call "ordinary language" to circumscribe their experience while sliding on snow. But what is "ordinary" to each of them can be different. And can be interspersed with some "professional language" they've picked up. And maybe misapplied. But it all has meaning. To them.

OK, I'm done. Now shake, rattle and stir that all together . . . blech! What a mess. There you have this subforum (and the ones like it elsewhere around the interwebs, and conversations on snow and in pubs the world over where people slide on snow for fun and spirituality).

Now, the usual reaction to this linguistic miasma is to NAIL THAT SUCKER DOWN! Ok, all you professionals (because why should we give a damn what the non-professionals think or do?) fight it out. Let the best language win . . . And while we are at it, let's appoint an authority to be the final ruler over correct and incorrect uses of language and practice when sliding on snow . . .

For gods' sake I hope you are all with me in wanting to exclude that kind of tyranny from the funnest f'ing thing you can do with several layers of heavily insulated clothing on.

So it comes down to the opposite. For me anyway. I can't tell you how many times I've read these discussions and thought, "But they are saying the same thing!" Or have participated myself. Carefully laid out what these things mean to me, how they look, and how they feel. Because I KNOW I am not hip to any of the lingos. Only to have a highly respected authority (seriously) write a book in response about how I've got it all wrong. And yet, I read what they wrote and say "we are mostly saying the same thing, although he added some nuances and [unintentionally] corrected something I took too far" or something like that. And so, if I swallow the frustration I still learn a thing or two. But it could have been a lot easier. And a lot less frustrating.

If people can wrap their heads around the fact that language is utterly personal, experience is utterly personal, and speak and hear from that perspective, then this subforum could become a place of substance and meaning only topped by that beautiful thing itself: sliding on snow.
 

T-Square

Terry
Admin
Moderator
SkiTalk Supporter
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,559
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Enfield, NH
. . . And while we are at it, let's appoint an authority to be the final ruler over correct and incorrect uses of language and practice when sliding on snow . . . .

Reference "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" by Bob Barnes. It has almost all the terms used in skiing along with complete descriptions and diagrams.

I have the PDF version which I printed out and bound for use.
 

CharlieP

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Posts
48
Location
MD suburbs of DC
July 21, 2017

"One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them".

My first Eastern Ski Tune-up at Stowe, Vt about 10 or more years ago, I had Bob as my coach/instructor. I vividly recall two things which he said to me at that time. One was a question and another was a word of advice. The question was: Why do we turn when we ski. The word of advice which he gave to me was: Always question advice/instructions you hear about skiing. No matter who it comes from. I asked: How about coming from you. To his everlasting credit, he replied: Especially me. ogsmile:golfclap::roflmao:.


Think snow,

CP
 
Last edited:

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
Instructor
Joined
May 8, 2017
Posts
327
Location
Eastern
Hey, I think we are getting to "it"....and thats hard to do....

JP
 

Chris Walker

Ullr Is Lord
Skier
Joined
Dec 8, 2015
Posts
739
Location
Denver
I will admit that I didn't read much of the last 5 pages. However, I mostly avoid this subforum for exactly that reason.

But I have very strong feelings about why it is. A lot of things like ego surely play into it some. But in my opinion the biggest problem is that its a professional discourse. There is a profession involved. People get paid. Their status in their profession, among friends, at home, is attached to it. They ARE it. When professional communities evolve, a language that circumscribes a set of practices evolves with them. Or multiple and sometimes divergent, as our PSIA, CSIA, and European whatever friends on here could readily illustrate. And Mavericks evolve (Harb for example) with a different language circumscribing a different set of practices.

Throw all those things in a pot. Then throw in a bunch of non-professional experienced and intelligent people. Wait, I'm not done yet. Because this last "group" isn't a group at all. They are a bunch of people who use non-professional language, what linguists call "ordinary language" to circumscribe their experience while sliding on snow. But what is "ordinary" to each of them can be different. And can be interspersed with some "professional language" they've picked up. And maybe misapplied. But it all has meaning. To them.

OK, I'm done. Now shake, rattle and stir that all together . . . blech! What a mess. There you have this subforum (and the ones like it elsewhere around the interwebs, and conversations on snow and in pubs the world over where people slide on snow for fun and spirituality).

Now, the usual reaction to this linguistic miasma is to NAIL THAT SUCKER DOWN! Ok, all you professionals (because why should we give a damn what the non-professionals think or do?) fight it out. Let the best language win . . . And while we are at it, let's appoint an authority to be the final ruler over correct and incorrect uses of language and practice when sliding on snow . . .

For gods' sake I hope you are all with me in wanting to exclude that kind of tyranny from the funnest f'ing thing you can do with several layers of heavily insulated clothing on.

So it comes down to the opposite. For me anyway. I can't tell you how many times I've read these discussions and thought, "But they are saying the same thing!" Or have participated myself. Carefully laid out what these things mean to me, how they look, and how they feel. Because I KNOW I am not hip to any of the lingos. Only to have a highly respected authority (seriously) write a book in response about how I've got it all wrong. And yet, I read what they wrote and say "we are mostly saying the same thing, although he added some nuances and [unintentionally] corrected something I took too far" or something like that. And so, if I swallow the frustration I still learn a thing or two. But it could have been a lot easier. And a lot less frustrating.

If people can wrap their heads around the fact that language is utterly personal, experience is utterly personal, and speak and hear from that perspective, then this subforum could become a place of substance and meaning only topped by that beautiful thing itself: sliding on snow.

I think this is and excellent post that really answers the title question, or at least comes very close. But my biggest takeaway from these seven erudite paragraphs is that linguists have a specialized term for non-specialized language. :D
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,455
Well it leaves out the intentional disrupter, contrarian, troll.

The word of advice which he gave to me was: Always question advice/instructions you hear about skiing. No matter who it comes from. I asked: How about coming from you. To his everlasting credit, he replied: Especially me
Classic Bob.
 

Varmintmist

Bear, with furnture.
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
1,702
Location
W PA
In sales the old saying is "You have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion" The Internet is a bt different "You have two eyes and two hands..at least try to use them equally". So, Before you type, at least read what the person is asking before you reply. Think about are you satisfying your need to be heard or have an opinion or are you actually trying to help the person asking the question. We see it here in technique but we also see it a lot in gear, where people are validating thier own opinion or purchase. We see the 6'2" 220lb guy get his 5'2" 115lb s/o Volkl Auras because he has Mantras. We see boot recommendation based on own personal purchases. There are so many suggests made for the wrong reasons because the person is not listening to the question or not even asking more questions to clarify what the OP is actually looking for.
Because people always see problems through their own glasses.
The trick is to figure out what will work for you before the opinion express derails. It doesnt mean that the advice is bad (always) it just might not be applicable.
Every activity that is gear sensitive and requires a skill set, from skiing, to shooting, to compact tractor ownership, to motorcycle riding is the same. If you get lucky enough to find someone with rounded experience that can step back and evaluate your situation you will get better advice than you will from a top expert, real or imagined, in his class. I have been a troubleshooter for about 34 years. We will still change bosses every couple of years to some biz degree guy/gal who once they see one problem solved, that is the fix for everything. Round peg, square hole. If your only frame of reference is a hammer, then every solution involves banging on something.

If you want a tractor to work 50AC that is 90% wooded, you will get advice that you "need" a 50+hp XXX even if you grew up working 100AC mostly field with a 27HP. You will see advice telling people that you MUST have a 60,000.00 machine to dig a foundation when you have already done it with a 30yo 15K backhoe.
If you are looking for a rifle to use in service matches, you will get advice about sub 2lb triggers on 6 lb rifles. If you want a handgun for a newbie, you will get the Glockophiles saying you must have a billion rounds in the magazine. If you want a hunting rifle you will see advice that it must be chambered in the Magnum du Jour because critters grew reactive armor according to the latest gun rag. If you are looking to practice you will get adamant opinions that you need not shoot more than 7 yards with a handgun, or 15, or 25, or under 3 feet, or you must do a El Presidente, or the El Presedente drill is old and shot with 1911's so it isnt any good, Weaver stance, broken weaver stance, isosceles is the only way to go .... ect ect.... sound familiar?
One isnt a rider unless one rides a Harley,,, or why would one spend that much to convert gasoline, fire, and air into noise and vibration without the benefit of horsepower? :huh: Loud pipes save lives. You want to talk helmet debates??? Ski forums have nothing on MC forums.
Ski stuff is the same. You get every piece of gear mentioned from a 150cm that just does not have the surface area to turn the guy high tech 2000.00 racing stuff in every width ever created all explained as "you NEED this".
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
If people can wrap their heads around the fact that language is utterly personal, experience is utterly personal, and speak and hear from that perspective, then this subforum could become a place of substance and meaning only topped by that beautiful thing itself: sliding on snow.

One of my instructors talks a lot about how sensations are personal - you might describe something one way, and I another. So she doesn't try to describe the sensation for me, but if I describe a certain movement as having a certain sensation, she'll reference that when it's needed.

She's a very good instructor.

She and I could not have a decent conversation about technique in writing, or probably even at the bar. On the snow is where I learn.

I can't count how many times I've listened to others in heated arguments about all kinds of topics where this was exactly the case.

There is one particular person in my life who, after I say ABC, says, "No, it's ABC." (ABC being a few sentences.) It's frustrating because they're clearly not listening, just waiting for me to pause so that they can jump in. Or if they are listening, they aren't taking the time to understand what I just said.

Of course, that describes most of us at some point or another.

When it comes to ski technique, I am simply not able (maybe willing) to get into someone else's head enough to try to understand five dense paragraphs describing a physical and tactile experience.

Since the wife taught Shotokan, it can be the same thing. :)

Funny, but seriously - if either of you are using violence as part of communication, it's not good at all! (Imagine if someone said, "My husband teaches Shotokan and uses it when we argue"! Even though presumably your trained wife would be more capable of inflicting harm than many men.)
 

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