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Drill Tips and drills for for-aft balance?

JESinstr

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Well of course if you're defining a "skiing term" that would involve skis. No one is using skis on a hockey rink normally.
But since we're using wikipedia...

"Compulsory figures or school figures were formerly an aspect of the sport of figure skating, from which the sport derives its name. Carving specific patterns or figures into the ice was the original focus of the sport. The patterns of compulsory figures all derive from the basic figure eight."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_figures

Hockey skate blade profile can be quite complicated. It seems like in general the center section has a radius of 9 to 11 ft. Racing speed skates are flat in profile, and also are not hollow ground afaik.

Choo...choo...

Well then we might as well throw in wood carving as well. After all a knife has a sharp edge does it not?

If Mark had been specific referencing figure skating figures then I would be happy to apologize. But he did not and that is part of the reason train wrecks happen. I think I have been consistent in referencing bending the ski.

It's no secret that skating of all kinds builds and hones the balance and edging skills needed in skiing. What about water skiing? what is your opinion on that? Is there skill association (especially fore and aft) one can bring to the snow skiing table? Slalom water skiers are doing the infinity move behind a boat so doing it on snow should be a no brainer right?.
 

markojp

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Skis aren't skates, but both tools can leave clean arcs in the surface for which they're designed to work. If you've skated, on hockey skates no less, you'd find the feeling of turning left to right in linked short radius railroad tracked arcs (you can pump, too!) similar enough in sensation to skiing that the value of skating, speed, hockey, or figure, would be a fun activity with plenty of crossover for skiing. I'm sure you've noted that teaching skiing to accomplished skaters is a piece of cake. And no worries. No apologies necessary. Again, it's a case of we just don't know each other well enough to sort through the inevitable brush ups with language. No offenses intended, none taken. Anyhow, off to bed.
 

quant

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Balance? Try a day on cross-country skis. Skinny skis and soft boots are always great for feeling balance. It isn't like you have a choice! For regular skiing, I remember a tip a coach gave me nearly 50-years ago: While indoors, put a pillow under the tips of your skis and pressure it while clicked into the bindings. Remembering that feeling helped with fore/aft balance while on the snow.
 

JESinstr

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Skis aren't skates, but both tools can leave clean arcs in the surface for which they're designed to work. If you've skated, on hockey skates no less, you'd find the feeling of turning left to right in linked short radius railroad tracked arcs (you can pump, too!) similar enough in sensation to skiing that the value of skating, speed, hockey, or figure, would be a fun activity with plenty of crossover for skiing. I'm sure you've noted that teaching skiing to accomplished skaters is a piece of cake. And no worries. No apologies necessary. Again, it's a case of we just don't know each other well enough to sort through the inevitable brush ups with language. No offenses intended, none taken. Anyhow, off to bed.

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.

Allow me just one more point if you will.
You stated above the the feeling one gets from turning left and right on skates is similar in sensation to turns in skiing. I would argue it is exactly the same ogsmile. What is required to develop that feeling is what is similar in many key respects. The one notable exception is that the skate is solid and the ski is flexible. Notwithstanding that they are great cross over activities, getting the ski to flex and form (and maintain) an arc shape is what sets skiing apart from skating and rollerblading.

It all goes back to understanding some simple basic (not complex) physics. Circular travel is circular travel and straight line is straight line and never the twain shall meet. Although when you are skidding one might believe that's what they are trying to do! Which goes to earlier posts about feelings being the same...but I digress.

Now back to your scheduled program already in progress.
 

Fishbowl

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When I ski I don't feel like I am making movements to bend the ski. I know that it does bend, but in my mind I am just lightening the inside ski and staying balanced. For me, this feeling is very similar to when I am carving turns on skates, as opposed to cross overs. I know the mechanics are different, but from my perspective my motions and the end results are effectively the same. Not sure if that makes sense, but in effect it doesn't matter that the ski bends and the skate doesn't, at least as far as my input is concerned.
 

James

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You stated above the the feeling one gets from turning left and right on skates is similar in sensation to turns in skiing. I would argue it is exactly the same ogsmile.
Hmmm... So, we've just been through a contrarian session? ogsmile

The one notable exception is that the skate is solid and the ski is flexible. Notwithstanding that they are great cross over activities, getting the ski to flex and form (and maintain) an arc shape is what sets skiing apart from skating and rollerblading.
There's lots of differences obviously. Getting a shaped ski to bend is pretty easy despite the endless talk of "one needs to pressure the tips" etc. Tip the ski on edge and stand in the middle - It bends about as evenly as possible. Maintaining is a little more complicated. Plus, we don't always want a full bend. And you used to ski with ridiculously stiff skis that barely flexed and had a sidecut of 50-70meters.
 

JESinstr

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Hmmm... So, we've just been through a contrarian session? ogsmile


There's lots of differences obviously. Getting a shaped ski to bend is pretty easy despite the endless talk of "one needs to pressure the tips" etc. Tip the ski on edge and stand in the middle - It bends about as evenly as possible. Maintaining is a little more complicated. Plus, we don't always want a full bend. And you used to ski with ridiculously stiff skis that barely flexed and had a sidecut of 50-70meters.

Don't disagree. However the ski will bend very little just standing on it. It is the introduction of forward velocity bringing on the centripetal push that makes the difference. I think we agree on that.

But let me throw this out to chew on. PSIA encourages and promotes rotary to help initiate (steer into) turns. Fundamental #4 I believe. Rotary has little to do with circular travel. To me, it is a shortcut/bypass when time/space/ability or patience won't allow pure carved entry. So if we can shovel bend to some degree as a method of initiating circular travel, what is so wrong with that? There is no right or wrong here, just options.
 

Mike King

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What is the effect of rotating the femur? It can be to increase edge angle. Increasing edge angle, coupled with the forces of gravity and centripetal force, bends the ski.

Mike
 

Brian Finch

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Not sure I buy that. Though it ain't the shins, I agree.
I'm constantly amazed when doing subway, train, or bus surfing how little the feet have to do with stability. (Surfing is just standing without touching anything and trying to maintain balance without moving the feet.)

It seems to be all core. Concentrate on moving belly button to spine, balance instantly improves and one becomes much more stable. It really is a freaky thing. Everytime I try to do it be feeling feet on ground, feel toes connected to the ground - it seems to make no difference! Maybe even makes it worse. Now maybe some info is being sensed by the feet, i don't know.

Perhaps @Brian Finch has some insights?


People actually use a variety of strategies: hip, knee, ankle.....

However, something as simple as performing a squat breaks down differently for different people.

Some use the motor control strategy of 'benz zee kneez'. Some 'send the rump (45* decline)' ; much depends on training & exposure. Then there are long/short femurs over long/short tibias overlaid on what type of sensory strategy is preferred: somatosenory/ visual/vestibular......

It's why folks can't agree on teaching...

Folks who are able to stabilize at the core often just have a more developed number of strategies..... :)
 

Zentune

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Ya I guess my point got lost in the noise. What I was trying to say is that core/spinal functionality/efficacy is at least somewhat dependent upon the foot/ankle/leg/pelvis relationships in the 3 planes. If my cm doesn't stack up over the 1st to 2nd met head at the appropriate time (as an example), the hip will have to work more, as will the adductors or abductors (depending on which way you are "out" of alignment) and so the core too will be affected...

zenny
 

Chris Walker

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The first drill I did for fore/aft balance (sorry if it's been mentioned not patient enough to read through 5 pages and I don't know what this drill is called so searching wouldn't help much) was to find a moderate, smooth slope and traverse across the hill on the little toe edge of my uphill ski while lifting the downhill ski a bit off of the snow. Sounds super simple and looked it when my coach demonstrated it, but when I tried I noticed that the tip of my ski flew up in the air in order for me to keep my balance.

That was my first clue that my default stance was in the dreaded back seat.:(
 
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Mendieta

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The first drill I did for fore/aft balance (sorry if it's been mentioned not patient enough to read through 5 pages and I don't know what this drill is called so searching wouldn't help much) was to find a moderate, smooth slope and traverse across the hill on the little toe edge of my uphill ski while lifting the downhill ski a bit off of the snow. Sounds super simple and looked it when my coach demonstrated it, but when I tried I noticed that the tip of my ski flew up in the air in order for me to keep my balance.

That was my first clue that my default stance was in the dreaded back seat.:(

It sounds like something of a cross between a J turn and a white pass turn (definitions courtesy of @razie ). I don't think this was brought up, yet, but what was brought up was a number of things that force good balance: jumping on the skis, balancing on the outside ski, outside to outside, thousand steps, even shorter skis, etc. All of those penalize a back seat with a ... butt seating :) Thank you, Chris!
 

Rod9301

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My suggestion is to forget about drills and pull your fest back when you ski, particularly the inside foot.
If your inside foot is not pulled back, you will be in the back seat in the next turn.
If you do this( pull your feet back) on every turn, you will never be back.

You pull the feet back with your hamstrings, and it's a pretty strong move.

Drills work to get a feel of your balance, but pulling your fest back is what you need to do to get and stay in balance.

Some people talk about moving your hips forward. This week take longer than moving the feet back.

Added bonus is that you will also pressure the tips when you pull your feet back.
 
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Mendieta

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My suggestion is to forget about drills and pull your fest back when you ski, particularly the inside foot.
If your inside foot is not pulled back, you will be in the back seat in the next turn.
If you do this( pull your feet back) on every turn, you will never be back.

You pull the feet back with your hamstrings, and it's a pretty strong move.

Drills work to get a feel of your balance, but pulling your fest back is what you need to do to get and stay in balance.

Some people talk about moving your hips forward. This week take longer than moving the feet back.

Added bonus is that you will also pressure the tips when you pull your feet back.

Thanks! Any favorite video(s) demonstrating the move? How about this article?

http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Tip_lead
 

Rod9301

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Look at Harald harb's site, lots of information there. I would get his books too.
 

razie

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oldschoolskier

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Balance is a funny thing as some action though natural actually put you off balance instead of keeping you in balance as you are counter acting more than straight balance issues that include grip and motion (just to mention a few).

The second thing is what you see someone do correctly and try to do are different as you can not see yourself do but depend on your own visualization of what you are doing.

This is where this different drills attempt to help correct these errors.

A good video, with a keen eye to review the errors can go a long way for rapid improvement for the right individual (together with the right drills of course).

Basically you've covered all the senses in learning.
 
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Mendieta

Mendieta

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Balance is a funny thing as some action though natural actually put you off balance instead of keeping you in balance as you are counter acting more than straight balance issues that include grip and motion (just to mention a few).

The second thing is what you see someone do correctly and try to do are different as you can not see yourself do but depend on your own visualization of what you are doing.

This is where this different drills attempt to help correct these errors.

A good video, with a keen eye to review the errors can go a long way for rapid improvement for the right individual (together with the right drills of course).

Basically you've covered all the senses in learning.

Absolutely. I think drills are fun, and help a lot. I love walking on my skis (thousand steps), skating (or trying to) or doing something else in catwalks or flats.

Video would be great if I could get someone to take video of me. Another way of getting feedback is from instructors. Online discussion gives you additional info, things to discuss with instructors, etc. Aside from cost, I will never understand why you wouldn't work with an instructor/coach, at least a few times a season. Even the best skiers in the world do, I don't see how I couldn't use them :) (again, cost can be prohibitive).

But when it comes to back-seat, I feel it immediately. I can fall into the back seat, and I know the instructor will tell me right off. That one I do detect, but to your point, I may be screwing something up in order to get off of it, so you still need the feedback.+
 

Zentune

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An interesting video, more food for thought. Notice how the legs, hip, and pelvis move as the foot is articulated manually from full pronation, through neutral, and into supination:

http://www.whatthefoot.co.uk/blog/2015/08/finding-neutral-video-from-the-what-the-foot-book

In this, we can see how the foot's position does in fact have a direct influence on posture. To bring this back to skiing, we can then infer that subtle changes in movement patterns (like trying to "get forward" as per the op), depending on which drills we focus on, can have fairly different outcomes.

zenny
 
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Mendieta

Mendieta

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An interesting video, more food for thought. Notice how the legs, hip, and pelvis move as the foot is articulated manually from full pronation, through neutral, and into supination:

http://www.whatthefoot.co.uk/blog/2015/08/finding-neutral-video-from-the-what-the-foot-book

In this, we can see how the foot's position does in fact have a direct influence on posture. To bring this back to skiing, we can then infer that subtle changes in movement patterns (like trying to "get forward" as per the op), depending on which drills we focus on, can have fairly different outcomes.

zenny

Yes, there are different levels of skiing. For people who are truly advanced or experts, there are more subtle aspects of balancing, in the quest for the perfect, effortless, optimal run. For newer skiers like myself, the first thing is to think "forward".

I remember a good conversation with @lswedish , as he was teaching my son and I a bumps lesson. We started with balance. He noticed that sometimes we were falling a bit behind on a steeper part of a blue. So we talked about this. No skis, just the boots, looking for "the spot" (center of the foot). I asked if I shouldn't err on the "forward" side rather than backward. He thought a little. "Yes, if you have to err, it's better if you are a little more forward than ideal. But why would we not shoot for the perfect spot". I am sure, in his mind,he was discounting the fact that newer skiers tend to fall back (a natural, instinct driven reaction).

Needless to stay, staying on the center of your foot is key to short turns in bumps.
 

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