• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
Josh,

He does a whole bit on it in his blogspot.

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to around January 14th (just below the video of him skiing on new knees).. There's photos and discussion. There maybe a video somewhere as well (he does post a ton of videos after all)-someone closer to this material can probably steer you in the right direction.

From the same HH Blog that @Superbman referenced, is a HH explains his thinking of the benefit of tip-lifting for his students. To some extent, one needs to be familiar with the PMTS dictionary and the concepts of flexing to release, counter balance and counter acting and tipping the new inside ski through out the finishing of the turn.

Tip ski lift at the release!

I have never been anti-tip lift, I always saw, or noted that I had it in my skiing, I even wrote about it in 2007.

I started using tip lift for intermediates when I saw too much focus on just lift the back of the ski. Which accomplishes little. I began by telling students the point of lifting was to get a release, but most were not tipping after they lifted the ski. The whole idea of lifting is to get that ski to the LTE.

So I began to tell our students to keep the ski level rather than just lifting the tail. In doing the exercise of keeping the ski level, from a stationary rehearsal, I had them compare the difference in the actions of the leg muscles, between just lifting the tail and lifting the tip.

It became obvious even in a stationary exercise for this comparison, that lifting the tip keeps the ski closer to the ground and it also engaged important hip and torso muscles that helped set up CA and CB, which lifting the tail did not. I began to have the group use just lifting the tip at the release. Low and behold, most of their extension went away, and inside ski lead was reduced. Better overall balance and transfer increased. SO I stayed with it.



Biomechanically speaking, the action helps to close the ankle, or Dorsi-flexes the foot, lifts the foot. The tibialis anterior, is the main lifting muscle used to lift the foot, which also helps to invert the foot. In turn, higher in the kinetic chain it engages the hip flexor, (tensor fascia latæ), You can also use it at Starbuck to order a special Lattee, it really confuses the hell out of them.

I 100 percent agree with harb on the inside tip lift during the edge change and why it happens. I also ties into the infinity move concept so beautifully outlined by @Bob Barnes. I am not so sold on the idea of inside tip lift in the apex and just before the edge change of a turn. but I can see how it accomplish the ideas of inside leg flexing and pull back in basically one fails swoop while at the same time taking balance of that new inside ski. Its honestly such good stuff, and is extremely observable in drills like "up and overs' and "one footed skiing" In one footed skiing when you go from little toe edge to big toe edge its feel much more natural to let the lifted ski go tip up, and then gradually go tip down though the turn though the finish, though the first half of the LTE edge turn. I have been doing it that way for years and have even observed current national team members skiing one footed like that in person.

I would go so far to say that with some amount of the COM go slightly aft at edge change, you all but promise to have either a rotary push off, or stem move during the edge change/ float phase of the turn.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123

so some thoughts on this. First I am not looking for critiques unless you are willing to post up some video of you doing what you are critiquing.

Second I am posting this basically just to show just how difficult it is to do non carved turn on just the outside ski without tip or tail drag, and no pole drag. Purposely dragging both poles makes the outside ski with no inside ski drag far easier. Up and over done carved makes it entirely possible to not drag the inside ski or drag your poles. I have yet to see outside ski with the inside ski entirely lifted with no pole drag that is not carved. If your able to do it, I would love to see it done. as far as I know my example is the first attempt posted online of that task. It can easily be done in a carved turn.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,304
Yeah, I agree that the clip around 2:35ish looks pretty rugged. I think it's because without that other point of contact they only mechanism you have left to shorten the size of the turn is counter-rotation. You can do it strongly enough to steer the ski and then have to unwind slowly enough to not overcome the friction of the ski, then repeat, thus the ratcheting appearance. Nice demos on the other ones though. More power to you for working through it and filling all day I think you owe one to Diane.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
diane was awesome, it really only took about an hour to get all of these videos....

the racheting was just about weirdest feeling I have ever felt in skiing. It was unstoppable and I have been skiing this drill for about 2 weeks now.

Maybe some packed powder would make it easier?
 

1chris5

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Posts
457
Location
Snowshoe, WV

so some thoughts on this. First I am not looking for critiques unless you are willing to post up some video of you doing what you are critiquing.

Second I am posting this basically just to show just how difficult it is to do non carved turn on just the outside ski without tip or tail drag, and no pole drag. Purposely dragging both poles makes the outside ski with no inside ski drag far easier. Up and over done carved makes it entirely possible to not drag the inside ski or drag your poles. I have yet to see outside ski with the inside ski entirely lifted with no pole drag that is not carved. If your able to do it, I would love to see it done. as far as I know my example is the first attempt posted online of that task. It can easily be done in a carved turn.
Thanks for the vids of the different drills. It really helps to put the discussion in context using actual images. Thanks for the time and effort. Well done.
 

Living Proof

We All Have The Truth
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
943
Location
Avalon - On The Way to Cape May
First, props to @Josh Matta for getting the video done and posted.
I am nowhere near the accomplished skier that he is, but, as a HH follower, I'll offer some thoughts. My one caveat that they are free, and, sometimes, you get what you pay for.

The turn that Jon is demoing in the first video is a release from LTE of the uphill weighted ski. In Harb's world, this is referred to as the two footed release, and, that series of body movements is at the very essence of his teachings.

Several years ago, I took a ski racing clinic at my home mountain, and, one of the drills we worked on was the Outside to Outside drill. For most in the group, it was disaster as they could not figure out how to initiate the turn without a whole lot of rotating the upper body.
I will not claim any mastery of the two foot release in my skiing, but, I did it better than any in my group as the movements are used in every turn I make. End of personal hubris.

The video below is Harb doing linked slow two foot releases. It is one of the core drills of PMTS, and, also one of the most difficult to master. Difficult because of the need for counterbalance and counteracting body movements per his school of thought. Clearly, the downhill foot is not raised anywhere near as much as what JB is doing in the first video, but, Harb has transferred his weight and balance to the LTE of the uphill ski prior to starting his turning movements.


So, my only thought for Josh is spending some time doing this very slowly is a precursor to doing it with the ski raised much higher such as JB is demonstrating.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
umm yeah I can easily do those.... they are not some PMTS super secret special thing. also harb's hips follow his feet quite a bit...so despite saying he is countered he really is not. he is also getting rotation from his pole touch.

I do totally agree on the PMTS sentiments that using upper body rotation(pelvis bone and up) as the first thing can be awful, and the pelvis and upward should resist the femur hip socket rotation. Rotational balance is what I call it. PMTS guys think that all the rotary is generated by the ski which is not a bad thought can can work a ton of the time, but I feel that femur will never separate from the hip socket unless its learned as an active move. I also feel to no guide our skis ever is basically limiting skiers to making dynamic turns on short sidecut skis in an open all mountain environment.

but you know what I am going to mimic harb today if Diane want to take her hand out of her mittens on -20 wind chill day. I also do some pivot slips to show how the PSIA verison has less hip movements than the PMTS version.

I mean we already had this thread and it was one of the first discussion I started here....we already basically established that the PMTS demos were not doing what they said they were doing and not a single PMTS skier could produce a demo of a two footed release with out hip rotation.

https://forum.pugski.com/threads/pmts-two-footed-release.1457/

I mean everyone has a cell phone these days and taking a high quality video is not that hard. there was 11 pages of thread but not a single person dared to post video.

I just wanted to point out that I do give credit where credit is due to the oth PMTS and PSIA....but when I think they are wrong I will go to great length to show they are wrong.


this is getting really far off topic though. IMO someone should make a video of a two footed release with out the hips following their skis.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,383
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
As I said before, the outside ski drill has a lot of different applications. This weekend I was skiing with Schanzy, a two-time demo team member. He's been working with me for the last year or so to learn what he calls a "pull" turn. This is a turn that is driven by the inside leg. We used an outside ski drill to highlight the movement. The idea is to rotate the upper inside leg out to steer the turn. If you only use the lower leg, there is no turning force imparted. The upper leg rotation, however, imparts significant turning force. It's really powerful, and a move I've been rebuilding my skiing around...

Mike
 

Living Proof

We All Have The Truth
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
943
Location
Avalon - On The Way to Cape May
umm yeah I can easily do those.... they are not some PMTS super secret special thing. also harb's hips follow his feet quite a bit...so despite saying he is countered he really is not. he is also getting rotation from his pole touch.

I do totally agree on the PMTS sentiments that using upper body rotation(pelvis bone and up) as the first thing can be awful, and the pelvis and upward should resist the femur hip socket rotation. Rotational balance is what I call it. PMTS guys think that all the rotary is generated by the ski which is not a bad thought can can work a ton of the time, but I feel that femur will never separate from the hip socket unless its learned as an active move. I also feel to no guide our skis ever is basically limiting skiers to making dynamic turns on short sidecut skis in an open all mountain environment.

but you know what I am going to mimic harb today if Diane want to take her hand out of her mittens on -20 wind chill day. I also do some pivot slips to show how the PSIA verison has less hip movements than the PMTS version.

I mean we already had this thread and it was one of the first discussion I started here....we already basically established that the PMTS demos were not doing what they said they were doing and not a single PMTS skier could produce a demo of a two footed release with out hip rotation.

https://forum.pugski.com/threads/pmts-two-footed-release.1457/

I mean everyone has a cell phone these days and taking a high quality video is not that hard. there was 11 pages of thread but not a single person dared to post video.

I just wanted to point out that I do give credit where credit is due to the oth PMTS and PSIA....but when I think they are wrong I will go to great length to show they are wrong.


this is getting really far off topic though. IMO someone should make a video of a two footed release with out the hips following their skis.

Josh wrote:
harb's hips follow his feet quite a bit...so despite saying he is countered he really is not. he is also getting rotation from his pole touch.

At the start of every turn that JB makes, and, what Harb shows in his demo, the hips and upperbody are facing in the direction of the downhill weighted ski. This can only happen if the skier is turning his hips very actively against the direction the skis are turning. If not, both the upper body and hips will face uphill at the completion of a turn.

Josh wrote:
umm yeah I can easily do those

Then why do you have so much difficulty imitating the turns JB is making? Don't make a video of pivot slips where the body faces downhill all the time, show us how well you can imitate HH's 2 foot release video.

Josh wrote:
PMTS guys think that all the rotary is generated by the ski which is not a bad thought can can work a ton of the time, but I feel that femur will never separate from the hip socket unless its learned as an active move.

Totally disagree, Harb has always stated that the movement of the hips must be very active and away from the direction of the turn. The hips and upperbody face the downhilll weighted ski. I challenge you to find any written Harb material stating the hips are passive, you said it, now show me the Harb quotes, not just "PMTS guys say". I say there are a ton of Harb statements asserting that rotation is caused by turning the upper body into the directions of the turn. Nobody on the web anywhere near the written material as HH, so go find something he wrote and quote it to prove your assertion.

Josh wrote:
I mean we already had this thread and it was one of the first discussion I started here....we already basically established that the PMTS demos were not doing what they said they were doing and not a single PMTS skier could produce a demo of a two footed release with out hip rotation.

Again, if Harb is not actively his counteracting his hips in the 2 footed release demo, how do his hips always face the downhill ski? For sure, not by a simple pole touch.

Finally, I appreciate your thinking on how to make ski turn, especially with respect to how to ski eastern trees. As an instructor, you are free to pick and choose the best of the best techniques and teaching methodologies to make your students ski better. I think that is what Harb has done over his career, tells it like he sees it, with a lot of video and pictures of his "best of the best". Can't blame you for doing your own thing. But until you post publicly your full methodology for the world to critique, then, you are just a critic. The world is full of critics.
 

Carl Kuck

Ambassador of Stoke
Skier
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Posts
739
Location
Del Mar
We taught this on the deck, using the tip down / tail up for the inside ski. I still do this as part of my workouts on the deck... :thumb:
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
ummm I had no difficultly making an outside foot turn with pole drag like JB is making. The difficulty arises when I ever I do not drag or pole touch. Which there is no demo anyways of someone doing outside foot to outside foot with no pole drag or pole touch an no inside ski drag of any sort in a non carved turn.

Again in all of my video my hips turn less than my legs, heck watch my free skiing there is clear action of the tips against the femurs.

my entire point on the 2 footed release is that the PSIA verison actually show upper and lower body separation where as the PMTS version just show inside leg tipping. flexxing and unweighting. would have videos but this was the weather yesterday...


and it was windier on the hill.
 

Myles

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Posts
96
At the women's edge camp we did this tip down. So I'm thinking the CSIA is tip down. I think I'm a little like Josh in that lifting the whole ski tends to put me in the back seat. @Lady_Salina ?
The CSIA wants you to do what Josh does dislikes so much: to lift the whole ski and to keep it level (not tipping forward).
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
I would love to see a video of a CSIA guy doing it ,with the entire ski up and no pole touch or drag...
 

Myles

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Posts
96
I would love to see a video of a CSIA guy doing it ,with the entire ski up and no pole touch or drag...
I have tried it and can only occasionally keep the inside pole off the snow, but I have gotten better over the past couple of weeks. I have to pick my ski up much higher than you do in your videos, more like the 'stork dill' that Nate is talking about. I have seen someone do the drill without dropping her inside pole (which has also made me wonder about the differences in male and female physiology), and, if I see her this weekend, I will ask her if I can video her doing the drill. For whatever reason (and I have not really thought much about this I confess), I find it much more difficult to keep the ski level when it is only elevated a few inches off the snow. I do find that the drill with, in my case, the inside ski lifted about knee level, even if only performed aspirationally, has improved my angulation and, as a result, edging. I am not sure the extent to which it has helped with fore-aft balance, however.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
is she carving or steering? Its entirely possible carving.......
 

Myles

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Posts
96
is she carving or steering? Its entirely possible carving.......
A very good question. Her intention is to do this while steering, but I will have to watch her carefully to make sure that she doesn't initiate a carve to keep her balance (I have been trying the drill at the same time she has and have been more focused on minding my own balance rather than carefully observing her skiing; I just noticed that she seemed to be having less difficulty than I was with the drill).
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,219
Location
Sierra & Wasatch
Just saw this thread & it reminded me of this video. We shot this early season, first day on new boots. I was trying to sort out what boot modifications I might be able to make.
So many variations, all with slightly different focus. Essential tools in the development of this basic fundamental.
I guess this is more of a tip lifted Stork turn with a splash of Jav.
FWIW...
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
Josh Matta

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
cared and pole dragging.....even a little pole drag get a fulcrum effect and creates a rotation point for this drill.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,219
Location
Sierra & Wasatch
cared and pole dragging.....even a little pole drag get a fulcrum effect and creates a rotation point for this drill.
Yes, I agree on both counts.

I suppose I should have specified that I was posting this as a variation reference of the "outside ski to outside ski" drill & for the simple fact that I had it. ogsmile
 

CalG

Out on the slopes
Pass Pulled
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Posts
1,962
Location
Vt
If one tries this drill, and immediately finds themselves "back", what does that say about boot fit and stance alignment?

I've tried the drill, the most common first result is to go back. I can overcome that weight position, but it takes an extra effort. What should one look for "at the feet" ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Staff online

Top