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The Numbers Game: Skis

quant

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Is there a fundamental theorem of ski design that could make "numbers" useful? Here is mine: "The optimal ski (for the day a skier uses it) is the easiest to turn and most forgiving in every condition and terrain a skier will encounter while still holding up with fastest speed the skier will go."

Therefore, a GS race ski with a 35m radius designed for use at one speed range meets the definition if used for racing. A recreational SL ski with a 66mm waist also meets that definition on a day defined by skiing rock hard WRODs. So does a 112mm waisted ski for a skier who is skiing on and off piste on a powder day. Since most people don't own enough skis to have an optimal one for each day they ski, the numbers become nothing more than a guide ignoring materials, flex, base structure and everything else that goes into the performance of a ski.
 
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Philpug

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@quant you are discovering the problem, the more you ask a ski to do, the less things it does well. So, it comes down to, what you you want to concentrate on? The skis that you mentioned, SL's, GS's and Powder skis, are the exception, they are specialty tools. These skis are not the one ski quiver skis although some will choose them, bless their hearts. When you average these specialty skis into one, you will be in that 80-100mm range which is big but them it gets down to the other aspects that really have more to do with the performance than jsut the numbers and that is the materials, flex and shape ect.
 
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Philpug

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Well..........mine goes to 11.

Bwahahaha!



Also important when loading into a roof box.

I don't demo much -- or at all compared to some of this site's great contributors -- but my life experience is that without exception, light skis suck.

But they don't have to weigh as much as my old Line Influence 115s, either. Holy knee abusers, Batman!

I have 19 pair of skis in our roof box..I think a bit over the 150lb limit.

But another bump for the new folks that might not have seen some of our early articles.
 

Andy Mink

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Numbers, schmumbers. Everyone knows it's the graphics that determine how a ski will ski. After all, this year's ski is better than last because it has a bitchin', bold graphics change!
 
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Philpug

Philpug

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Numbers, schmumbers. Everyone knows it's the graphics that determine how a ski will ski. After all, this year's ski is better than last because it has a bitchin', bold graphics change!
N.G.T. (new Graphic Technology) was the biggest advancement in skiing since theHead Standard.
 

markojp

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N.G.T. (new Graphic Technology) was the biggest advancement in skiing since theHead Standard.

Especially the Head 'metal head' series. :roflmao:
 

Snuckerpooks

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As a racer, I don't get a choice but don't let radii fool you into what you'll enjoy. Used to be a slalom carving lover all my ski life. Got on a pair of 195/35 for GS a year or two back, hated them. Got on a pair of 188/30's this season, probably my favorite ski on a nice hard day of free skiing.

I was pleasantly surprised. But I ask my skis to do the same thing day in and day out.
 
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Philpug

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It is getting to the time of the year that we need to bring this back.
 

ski otter 2

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As a racer, I don't get a choice but don't let radii fool you into what you'll enjoy. Used to be a slalom carving lover all my ski life. Got on a pair of 195/35 for GS a year or two back, hated them. Got on a pair of 188/30's this season, probably my favorite ski on a nice hard day of free skiing.

I was pleasantly surprised. But I ask my skis to do the same thing day in and day out.


Yeah, I had a similar experience with the 188/30s (in my case, Volkl and Atomic versions). even though I haven't been a racer in many years, and was only a middling one at that. They are probably my favorite groomer skis now.

To me this is a great example of the "numbers" needing to come together, harmonize, in a given ski - often in hard to predict ways sans testing, or demoing. To me the 188/30 "numbers"/variables (and also some other "numbers," like 183/23, differently) really come together with gs race skis in ways that hit a "sweet spot," maybe for many men and women.

By contrast, the 183/30 W FIS gs skis, at least with one pair for me (and from reports of others), really sucked. :)
 

ski otter 2

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There are lots of examples of this sort of thing, harmonics with a certain ski. To me, the 18x Nordica Enforcer 100 was an example of this: great harmony, more than the numbers would let on, maybe; whereas shorter versions of the same ski, and the narrower Enforcer 93, were very different skis, for me. (I've heard the 93 also works for many, but as a ski with a different feel.)

The Moment Bibby Pro 184 and 191 have similar numbers, but they handle very differently: the 184 more playful, that can still charge a bit for lighter folks; the 191 a great charger that's often still playful, but that some find too much, not versatile enough (though it works for a lighter guy like me even, as a charger). On the other hand, the 176 Bibby Pro acts very differently, no magic, to me. So much so that they make fewer of them, and you can almost always find the 176s as cheaper leftovers on sale.

The Rossi Sickles were the same way: the shorter 176s were a ski to avoid: the variables did not work together - whereas the longer versions were great, a different, better ski.

You just have to try em, or learn from word of mouth what works: and it's more than the numbers that tell the tale. I don't think test pilots will ever become obsolete, for example, when it comes to how a plane design will handle or what modifications it might need.
 
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fatbob

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I'm one of Phil's 11/10 skiers sizewise if not skillwise. Post above makes a good point - I never have to agonize about length in a ski I just grab the longest available in that model ( except the Movement Superturbo and the Shiro where I never got to try the 203s). I suspect a lot of these are the designed length and certainly I find very poor skis.

It does mean I'm one of the few people on Pugski yet to be wowed by Renouns as the pair Phil lent me for a few laps were just too short for me. Lesson for demo teams is while having something in low170s and low 180s may cover most your bases the skiers at the extremes aren't going to see the best of your product.
 

Doby Man

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While this was the thread that inspired this response, the writing evolved into a technical analogy that I thought was more relevant to the analogies/teaching thread. However, it is an analogy too complex for the side of the hill such as “You are a pilot? Try to tip your skis like you tip your wings to turn the plane” so, not a good choice for that thread. I appreciate that level of content management to address the randomness that can dilute the message of a good topic. Anyway, the first paragraph is about what numbers on a ski means to me. The second, how it relates to technique and how skis can be seen as a biological extension of the body or the body as a mechanical extension of the skis.

I’m no expert on ski design and more on usage. Though I have probably sold at least a thousand pair ski bumming my way through a few ski shops here and there. I have watched closely the evolution of ski design, new materials and manufacturing processes over the past few decades. Very interesting stuff. There is no other nearly as a sophisticated relationship the human body shares with an external object. Not even the most sophisticated prosthetic devices out there, including robotics, come close to the level of sophistication in the union of skier and ski equipment. I agree as to the lack of importance of individual numbers associated with skis, however, not in terms of how they relate and integrate with each other. Once we take the numbers to the next level, to their relationships with each other, do we start to determine how we can control the “feel” of the ski. Longitudinal flex balance, torsional flex balance and edge radius/shape, independently, are not very inspiring pieces of information. Though, when we size, shape and align these three/4 elements with each other, we start to see the formation of the sweet spot to come alive - its location: more fore or aft, its length: short and abrupt or longer and more progressive and its rebound: quick and energetic or chill and smooth. Once you mix the engineered sweet spot with feel and performance promoting materials, a certain width for terrain type along with the customer chosen length you've made it to the end of the chain of the mechanical to biomechanical mating process (in short).

Now, further bearing with me, I find it very interesting how the mechanics of an alpine skier’s body and how it finds its “skeletal sweet spot” to mimic the same manufacturing process. Any individual motor pattern in of itself is neither much to look at nor judge in an isolated capacity. However, when we look at how we add up, relate and integrate these individual movements into a “unified motor package”, all that share the same DIRT, we start to find the sweet spot in our skeleton. Blending the right flexion, extension, angulation, inclination, rotary and foot movements that find the right unified sense of timing, then “defining” that feel, that specific kinetic chain, and processing it for manufacturing in all of your basic everyday turns. This “home base” of technique with which you master your medium/regular technical turns on open groomers, will soon then serve you on that backcountry terrain as you figure out the “accessory” tactical adjustments. I feel that this unique pairing of such similarly complex dynamics is the reason skiing is such an amazing sport. If you want to manufacture good turns, you need to use a good manufacturing process. Success is not in the turn, it is in the manufacturing process.
 
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