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The impact of indy brands on the major brands

Tricia

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I recently read an interesting article about the way big players in the industry are impacted by the small players. This article compared the ski industry big brands to the major beer manufacturers, and how the impact of the smaller brands, which were compared to craft beers, is changing how the big brands need to change their vision to stay competitive in the market place.

As a site that spends a lot of time on equipment from the major players as well as some of the smaller guys, I can say that the idea to stand out is as much bout the quality of the experience as it is about the uniqueness of the experience.

We've had the pleasure of skiing on some incredible products with both the quality and uniqueness, and have spread that experience amongst our members.
We've also had head scratching experiences with some of the unique products that have been sent our way.

Do the big players in the industry need to make a change in an attempt to offer something unique, or are they already seeing the need to create something new, drawing the attention of the consumer?

Take a brand like DPS. It wasn't long ago that they were considered an Indy brand with a new fun shaped powder ski that was offered in a Pure form for someone who wanted to experience the incredible lightness for back country skiing, as well as the Hybrid form for the more conservative spender who just wanted a fun powder ski.
As they've expanded their offering, they are playing to a bigger audience and are viewed by many as a major player.
Meanwhile, some of the bigger manufacturers have implemented some similar fun shapes and designs to capture some of DPS' audience.

@JLev is an example of someone who created something new with Line skis, back in the day, which is now one of the bigger players in the ski world. More recently, J-Skis is his vision, (Look for my upcoming review), and he is producing some really good stuff.

Then there is @Cyrus Schenck and Renoun. This is a product that is small in the smallest of ways but it delivers a huge level of performance and quality and lets you know you're skiing something special.

The question that came up in the article I read was - Does the impact of these small brands with a story change how the bigger manufacturers have to do business?

The bigger questions for me is - Is the small guy's story enough to be the next amazing brand, or does the small guy have to produce a quality experience with the story?

All of the guys (skis) I've mentioned here have produced an incredible experience as well as a story, and have made their mark on the industry.

I mean, its cool to drink the craft beer instead of Budweiser, but the craft beer needs to taste good, right?
 

Drahtguy Kevin

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I haven't found the affinity for indie skis that I have for craft beer. Maybe my size (thanks, beer) has something to do with it? I've found damn near all the indies aren't stiff enough to be skied aggressively. Most of the indies I've been on just don't support being driven. They like to starve, surf and pivot. Also the resources indies have just don't match up to the big makers, and their product shows it. Seems lots of indies try to fill a minuscule niche for a very specific type of skier in very specific conditions. Many of the "new" ideas indies promote have come and gone with the big guys. And for a reason. Renoun and @Cyrus Schenck are the huge exception, which I find remarkable because of Cy's affinity for wide skis.
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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@Drahtguy Kevin Its interesting that you bring up that point.
There are skis that have been sent to us to try that were same skis but different lengths for me and Phil. Most often a ski that I really like is one that Phil is not quite as thrilled with. I think much of it has to do with the fact that size (of the skier) matters.
 

fatbob

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There is no doubt that indies pushed the bigger guys in terms of product over the last 15 years. For all the innovation that was coming out of athlete led product at say Salomon (1080, Pocket Rocket etc) at the turn of the century there were a whole bunch of majors it seems to me effectively sat on their arses (Head, Atomic etc). Line produced the original Mothership (as an indie) which became almost the exact template for the hugely successful Seth Pistol etc. I think it took the indies to get the majors to consider rocker seriously. It isn't the fault of the indies that the major marketing template then crapped all over the rocker concept by chucking it at everything indiscriminately

For this reason I don't have an intrinsic belief in the superiority of a product coming from a major over an innovative indie and probably have a slight bias to indies I do find get it right - I've had fantastic skis from Faction, Icelantic and WhiteDot, snowboards from Prior. This is not the same as an indie automatically conferring superiority - the snowboard industry is littered with the corpses of companies punting poor generic chinese boards under their "exciting rider owned philosophy".

Mike Powell's recent interview with Jason Levinthal is interesting, J makes a good point about him basically being the one doing everything at J skis, but it also means as a consumer you can Skype him and have a chat and get direct insight from the designer. That becomes a challenge to scale (while remaining sane) but J claims its a much more efficient way of getting messages out and feedback rather than a multi-tier system.
 

Philpug

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It is getting blurred to what is an idependant, I have been in some faclities that are operating room clean and some that are well, not so much and you are tripping over beer cans walking from one side of the room to the other. I have seen one bad winter put some out of business before they even got any momentum started. What I have found with many smaller independents is the lack of feel, that elusive je ne sais quoi. Some are either very planky or floppy like @Drahtguy Kevin talks about. Build quality for most are not on par with the majors...not that we have seen 100% consistancy from them either.

I can see these smaller manufacturers talking more to each other, creating their own consortium of sorts, co-competition. @JLev would be a great organizer and leader.
 

Monique

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I'll admit that I'm a big fan of the little guy and boutique brands. I'm drawn to them emotionally. So I guess the story works for me. If an indie brand and a big manufacturer both have the exact same ski, I'll choose the indie, or at least the one that seems more indie, to be honest. I love "made in Colorado" or "made in Utah." I love that my Fat-ypuses were made just down the street, and that I talked to the owner himself about what size to choose. (One day I'll get to ski them!)

I'm no economist, but I'd think the sign of a healthy industry would be that some little fish get bigger, and some big fish get eaten, right? I would imagine it's hard to go from selling a few hundred skis a season to a few ... thousand? More? How many skis do you have to sell to be a big guy?
 

peterm

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I've never been on any indie skis but I've enjoyed poking around the ON3P web site and like their tagline "Who builds your skis?". Their factory looks decent: https://shop.on3pskis.com/pages/factory

I also see a lot of Moment skis around Kirkwood. Chatted to a couple of different people last week skiing the Deathwish and both were very enthusiastic. Triple camber sounds a bit weird to me but maybe it works. Unfortunately I'll miss their demo day this weekend.
 

quant

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Startups come from people with newer/better ideas, or from people who think they can do something better. Once a product becomes a commodity there is little need for independent producers. Fortunately, the barrier to entry is low to manufacture skis, consisting primarily of garage space and a press.

In the ski industry newer materials, shapes and even top designs were once pushed by the independents. Is there much left in ski design outside of tweaking things? When you think about it, many skis today are made very similar to a racing ski from the late 1960's. The big difference is only with the ski shapes, incremental improvement with materials, and quality control. There may not be much left for the indys to create.

The true independents have some advantages. Indys can do custom work, which is beneficial for some. Indys can also produce skis in shapes the bigger manufacturers do not find profitable (e.g. Fat-ypus). The downside compared to the biggies is quality control (matching flex patterns of skis, worse finishing equipment, no automation, etc.), testing (the big manufacturers can test infinitely more on the snow), and reaching a critical point in sales to make a ski making hobby into a business.The biggest issue seems to be the last one given the size of this industry is so small.

I still ski my SkiLogiks and love them. The company failed. The product was good, the company carved out a niche with the most beautiful tops ever produced, but something went wrong. My guess is that they didn't charge enough and made the mistake of charging a mass produced price for a custom ski. The company started out in a factory due to getting financing (it was not a hobby), but the costs must have been too high selling through traditional retailers.

The barrier to entry is low so there will be no shortage of indys. Unfortunately, the potential to make a business out of a hobby is also low given the bigger manufacturers can easily do everything the indys do.

Regardless of the above, I still want a pair of Rabbit On The Roof skis...or racing skis from Sporten (not an Indy but not known here)...or anything from Blossom, Bomber, etc.
 

Josh Matta

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I haven't found the affinity for indie skis that I have for craft beer. Maybe my size (thanks, beer) has something to do with it? I've found damn near all the indies aren't stiff enough to be skied aggressively. Most of the indies I've been on just don't support being driven. They like to starve, surf and pivot. Also the resources indies have just don't match up to the big makers, and their product shows it. Seems lots of indies try to fill a minuscule niche for a very specific type of skier in very specific conditions. Many of the "new" ideas indies promote have come and gone with the big guys. And for a reason. Renoun and @Cyrus Schenck are the huge exception, which I find remarkable because of Cy's affinity for wide skis.

They are niche skis but my 4frnt Renegades are not soft....not even close to it. But living in colorado I would have very little use for a ski basically made for heavy snow.
 

Monique

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In the ski industry newer materials, shapes and even top designs were once pushed by the independents. Is there much left in ski design outside of tweaking things? When you think about it, many skis today are made very similar to a racing ski from the late 1960's. The big difference is only with the ski shapes, incremental improvement with materials, and quality control. There may not be much left for the indys to create.

And yet, ski shape and materials can make or break a ski ...

There's still plenty to get excited about every year, I think.
 

fatbob

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Maybe Cyrus's Non-newtonian stuff is the next big breakthrough that we'll see across the board - what the majors would do is bring it in at a price point more accessible to the average joe (even if its only because they are pretty much guaranteed to mis market it so stock will be available at a substantial discount). At which point his tech advantage is gone (subject to whether he has the patents on everything that might work locked up) but might survive on premium postioning and feel alone.

Everyone copies everyone else, IP is pretty hard to protect absolutely, means ultimately the little guy really needs to hope his niche stays below the radar yet profitable enough to mine for good while.
 

jmeb

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...
The bigger questions for me is - Is the small guy's story enough to be the next amazing brand, or does the small guy have to produce a quality experience with the story?...

In my limited view the indies who manage to stick around have to produce a quality experience to go with their story. Lots of indies reach some limited market but quickly plateau or fade away. The ones that are doing something unique and "quality" are the ones who really stick around. For examples of the first I'd look at brands like High Society (meh), Surface (meh), etc etc.

For examples of the "quality experience" indies I think of brands like:

- Renoun: standout for build quality, balance in skis and their dampening.
- On3p: beautiful finish, unique designs, very damp yet energetic bamboo cores, super durable bases.
- Praxis: huge variety, tons of customization, great build quality. Most importantly, incredible customer service that helps makes sure you are skiing on the right ski for you and not just a cool ski.
- Moment: fun, versatile designs and some all-time hits like the Bibby Pro.
- DPS: Popularized a unique, fun shape and really captured the hearts of many with their carbon layups.

I think many of these also carry/carried the advantage of knowing you were supporting a local ski culture somewhere in the USA.

..I haven't found the affinity for indie skis that I have for craft beer. Maybe my size (thanks, beer) has something to do with it? I've found damn near all the indies aren't stiff enough to be skied aggressively. ...

Need to get you on some different indies like a Moment Belafontane / DPS RPC 112 / ON3P Wren / Praxis RX w/ a 4 or 5 flex :). Unless by ski aggressively you mean rip lots of quick, carved turns on hard snow. Because in that respect I will agree with you, no indie ski I have skied (I haven't skied Renouns) is as good on the hard as many skis from big manufacturers like Blizzard, Head, Rossi, Atomic etc.

Full disclosure: I own numerous indie skis (1 Praxis, 2 Moment, 1 PM Gear, 1 High Society) alongside a couple of big manufactures (K2 & Atomic)
 

Monique

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Icelantic has gotten pretty big. Nomads (pre-rocker) were my first 100+ ski, and I liked them a lot. Bought them because a friend swears by the Shaman, which he wore out amd replaced with another Shaman.
 

Andy Mink

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I have two pair of Moments, the Tahoe and the Night Train. I like them because they're local. Honestly, the Tahoes are pretty good (for me) on groomers and a few inches of powder. The Night Trains? Not so much (for me).

Going back to what @Tricia said about beer, I hope that some of these smaller companies aren't bought out by the big guys to either get a technology or to get a competitor off the playing field. Like @Monique I like to root for the little guy even when they get a little bigger a la DPS.
I was riding with @Tricia the other day and we were talking about the big guy/little guy. Several small brewers have been bought up by big guys. The brand name may stay the same but the specialness of a little guy doing well is lost. On the other hand, you may not get to drink your favorite beer anymore because it's no longer on the shelf.

All this beer talk...think I'll go have an Icky!
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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I've never been on any indie skis but I've enjoyed poking around the ON3P web site and like their tagline "Who builds your skis?". Their factory looks decent: https://shop.on3pskis.com/pages/factory

I also see a lot of Moment skis around Kirkwood. Chatted to a couple of different people last week skiing the Deathwish and both were very enthusiastic. Triple camber sounds a bit weird to me but maybe it works. Unfortunately I'll miss their demo day this weekend.
Maybe you'd be interested in @Andy Mink 's Night Trains??

I have two pair of Moments, the Tahoe and the Night Train. I like them because they're local. Honestly, the Tahoes are pretty good (for me) on groomers and a few inches of powder. The Night Trains? Not so much (for me).

Going back to what @Tricia said about beer, I hope that some of these smaller companies aren't bought out by the big guys to either get a technology or to get a competitor off the playing field. Like @Monique I like to root for the little guy even when they get a little bigger a la DPS.
I was riding with @Tricia the other day and we were talking about the big guy/little guy. Several small brewers have been bought up by big guys. The brand name may stay the same but the specialness of a little guy doing well is lost. On the other hand, you may not get to drink your favorite beer anymore because it's no longer on the shelf.

All this beer talk...think I'll go have an Icky!
Did you know that its National Margarita Day?:margarita:
 

Andy Mink

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Maybe you'd be interested in @Andy Mink 's Night Trains??


Did you know that its National Margarita Day?:margarita:
I saw a guy in the lift line with a big agave graphic on his snowboard yesterday. It's a sign!
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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I have tequila, limes and Grand Marnier
 

Drahtguy Kevin

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They are niche skis but my 4frnt Renegades are not soft....not even close to it. But living in colorado I would have very little use for a ski basically made for heavy snow.

@Josh Matta is right about the niche thing. I'm not saying the indies don't have a spot at the table, but can a company stay afloat filling niches especially when other little guys are bucking for the same buyer?

Need to get you on some different indies like a Moment Belafontane / DPS RPC 112 / ON3P Wren / Praxis RX w/ a 4 or 5 flex :). Unless by ski aggressively you mean rip lots of quick, carved turns on hard snow. Because in that respect I will agree with you, no indie ski I have skied (I haven't skied Renouns) is as good on the hard as many skis from big manufacturers like Blizzard, Head, Rossi, Atomic etc.

I've heard good things about Moment and ski with a fella who owns a couple pairs. They look stout and well built. I'd love to get on ON3P sometime. That said, so many indie skis seem to be one trick ponies filling a small, small hole in a quiver. Skis that don't perform well enough that I would accept their weaknesses because the strengths are so much better than another more well-rounded ride.

Perhaps Josh is even more correct in that I am a Colorado snow snob. Doesn't keep me from having a half-dozen skis in my regular rotation...
 

Josh Matta

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The issue with being in east is we get lighter than Colorado snow, heavier than PNW snow, sometimes it rains and quite often the wind blows....sometimes in the same day.
 

ejj

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One benefit with (some) smaller makers is the time to market issues involved with large companies. This is becoming a bigger issue with internet blogs that talk about the latest and greatest, and everyone wants the new shape ASAP. The big ski and bike companies have a two year product cycle--from design to retail shop. Some smaller companies can deliver a new shape in months.

This is the same in the MTB world--a smaller company can push new tech and design to market quickly, while Specialized and Trek take an extra season.
 

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