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Snow/ice tires question....

Eddie

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Living here in NYC outer boroughs, I am unfamiliar with snow tires. I remember my grandfather always switching to snow tires on his car in the 60s and 70s. And whenever it snows here, the streets and highways are plowed soon afterwards. Yet after reading comments by Philpug and others has me thinking. At ski resort parking lots, AWD cars with most likely all seasons, are seen spinning their wheels, being towed out of parking spots. Other pickups and 4WDs with all seasons spinning out, or driving into woods, etc. I was even told my FWD Jetta with snows would be better(safer) than most AWD/4WD having only all seasons.
SO, why then are those tires called "All Season", considering what I've been reading. AND why should they be legally allowed to be labeled "All Season"?
 

Philpug

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"All season" is a very general marketing label, not too dissimilar to the "all-mountain" one used by ski manufacturers but I do believe the tire companies use some sort of minimum standard in either compound or tread pattern.

To me winter/snow tires are cheap insurance and infact if done frugally, shouldn't cost you much at all. Start with an extra set of wheels, these you can find on Craigslist or some other secondary trade site, since mist cars now come standard with a +1 or +2 wheel size, consider going to the standard sise wheel for our car. Speaking of Craigslist, in your area there are a lot of people who lease, when their leases go back many tiems they keep the snow tires, it is a good option to buy a used set many time unused, and get your extra wheels at the same time. knwo what you are looking for in wheel size and lugnut pattern plus offset. BE flexible, know that most Audi wheels fit a VW and vice versa. Our Golf Alltrack comes with a 17" wheel and an optional 18" but the standard size is 16", I went with a 16" for my winter tires. Note you have to compensate with a taller sidewall to keep the rolling circumference similar. The taller sidewall will give you a softer rise and costs some in handing but we are looking for winter performance not summer handing performance.

Choosing tires, there are some great options every year and every one has their favorites, get opinions for people here along with the experts at sites like The Tirerack and Discount Tire. If you have a local tire guy, talk to him too. Replace often. The best tread on a winter tire is the first half of it's life. Personally I will use a tire for only 1-2 seasons then sell the tire at that point when the tread still looks good but the effective siping is near gone. I can usually recoup $100-200 back from the used tires (I keep the rims) and put that towards the cost of the new tires. Here in snow county there are people always looking for used snow tires. Remmber too, your regurlat tires will not get the abuse of winter driving and winter potholes so their life is expanded by the miles that youare driving on your winter tires, so there is that cost savings by extending their life.

Car and Driver did a comparison years ago and IIRC this is how it came out:

  1. AWD w/Winter Tires
  2. FWD w/Winter Tires
  3. AWD w/All Seasons
  4. RWD w/Winter Tires
  5. FWD w/All Seasons
  6. RWD w/All Season
3&4 might have been switch, I forget but it shows that tires are more inportant than drive type.
 

Tom K.

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I'll add that snow tires are more than just a little better now than they were on your grandpa's car in the 60s!
 

oldschoolskier

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Summers, good compound and tread for warm weather traction.

Snows/mud deep thread for grip in soft stuff.

All Weather, good all weather compromise traction until the use of pre-salting (pet peace of mine, enviro issues, road life issue $$$$, health issues).

Winter, designed to compensate for pre-salting, resulted in a good winter solution all around.

Studded tires, would personally use over Winters if local laws allowed, in the winter season. Better than pre-salting, reduced road maintenance.

Chains, cheap easy solution for those need traction days on any tire. I carry a set in both my truck and car (only for drive wheels, however for some areas they are required for all wheels justifiably).

On our car all seasons and winter tires, makes a difference), on the truck all season truck tire, chains if needed for both. The rest is common caution and experience driving in winter conditions.

Hopefully this helped.

Forgot to add spinning wheels in ski parking lot (or any snow covered lot) after an extended park is common because the road salt helps melt the snow under you vehicle causing you to give yourself your own ice slick. The best solution studs or chains.
 
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scott43

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I've been kicking tires (har har) for a bit now as both vehicles need new tires shortly. I'm going full-on summer tires and snows for the AWD vehicle. For the backup car, I'm going to do Toyo Celsius or something similar. We put such low miles on it generally and I do occasionally have to drive up north in the winter with it so I'm going to try this route and see how it goes. I generally dislike these "all-weather" tires with the snowflake symbol because the wet weather traction seems to suck mostly, but I'll give them a try.
 
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Eddie

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While we are on the subject, I assume you guys change from summer/all season to winter/ice, and back yourselves? What do you guys use, air, or power/cordless impact gun? And does it matter what brand(Craftsman, Dewalt, Bosche)? Do they sell special lugs, for said gun, for what brand car? Even if I keep the Jetta, and start driving back and forth to Upstate and VT skiing, might as well put winter tires on.
 

Philpug

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While we are on the subject, I assume you guys change from summer/all season to winter/ice, and back yourselves? What do you guys use, air, or power/cordless impact gun? And does it matter what brand(Craftsman, Dewalt, Bosche)? Do they sell special lugs, for said gun, for what brand car? Even if I keep the Jetta, and start driving back and forth to Upstate and VT skiing, might as well put winter tires on.
Most of the time I do the swap myself, I have 2Ton Harbor Freight hydraulic jack and also (very important) jack stands. I use a corded Dewalt inpact driver and I will also torque test all the nuts when back on. Depending on how lazy I am, we have a Discount Tire within 2 miles from my house and I will have them do the swap for me, they do it for free.
 

jmeb

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I've solved the swapping problem by buying some of the newer generation of snow tires (i.e. mountain-snowflake rated) that are year-round AT tires with a 55K tread life warranty. Laziness wins. But this is probably only an option with truck-like tires?
 

KingGrump

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Hi Eddie, I live in NYC also. Have done the SVT weekend bit for decades until we retired few years back. Now, we usually spend the ski season roaming the west for months on end. Sometimes in one place but often going between resorts. Like @Philpug said, full on winter tires makes a big difference.

We usually take a AWD with winter tires on our trip. My favorite winter tire is the Blizzak WS80. I preferred them over the Michelin X-Ice. We run the Blizzak on 17" rims rather than the optional 19" summer rims. We lose a bit on the dry handling but it's much better in the snow. During the 15/16 season, we logged 14K miles going between resorts in all sorts of weather. The AWD and tire combo is confidence inspiring.

Last season, we took a FWD mini-van with WS80 tires to Whistler for a 3+ month stay. Mini-vans are great for the additional space. The mini-van routinely go thru 1/4 mile of unplowed condo parking lot with no slippage. Often the new snow is 12" to 16" deep. The tires are amazing.

For swapping tires, I normally use a 1/2" Ingersoll Rand air impact gun. I also use a Milwaukee cord electric impact gun in a pinch. I am not a fan of the cordless units even though I have a few. I found most cordless units to be heavier but have less torque. Socket wise, I like the aluminum ones with the nylon outer sleeves. They keep the alloy wheels and lug nuts looking new.
 

Erik Timmerman

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I used to use an air-impact wrench, but the last few seasons I have been using a Milwaukee 1/2" impact. So much better than the air unit was.
 

Dave Marshak

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I have a cheap hydraulic jack, and I lift it one corner at a time, without jack stands. Sometimes I ski without a helmet, or even paddle without wearing a PFD all the time. Last year I didn't get my binders checked. It's a miracle I've survived this long.

I use a breaker bar to take them off and a torque wrench to put them on. An old school X shaped lug wrench is faster, but there is usually not enough relief in the alloy wheels around the lug nuts to use those.

When my son was around, we would line up four cars and change 16 wheels all at once. It looked like a NASCAR pit stop. It goes a little slower now.

dm
 
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surfsnowgirl

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I've solved the swapping problem by buying some of the newer generation of snow tires (i.e. mountain-snowflake rated) that are year-round AT tires with a 55K tread life warranty. Laziness wins. But this is probably only an option with truck-like tires?

That's what I do with the tires on my Jeep. We don't have a garage and I refuse to pay someone to store tires so I had to find something that works all y ear. I have my Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac tires that I worship. They have the three-peak mountain/snowflake symbol (3PMSF) to identify they meet the industry's severe snow service standards. I've never been in a ditch, skidded or ever spun out in these tires. I know I'm not invincible but I always joke I could drive up the side of a building with these things. They have a pretty aggressive tread pattern and look pretty cool too. You can also stud them but I do not. I bought them in the fall of 2015 and have gone though 2 winters with them so far and I'll get one more winter out of them before replacing them next year sometime. They are also most excellent in rain and mud. They aren't cheap but they are the only tire for me.
 

cosmoliu

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For the question in the OP, I ran across this video last year and thought it was very instructive. One problem, though, is that the AWD car had Summer tires, which would be worse than All Season. Worthless, even. Still, a fun illustration of the concept.

 
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Jilly

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All 4 winter snows on my Equinox. They're on rims, so just swap them out. Usually get it done the same time as an oil change in the spring. Usually Goodyear does it in the fall. Store off season tire in my shop under the shelving. Have to go look at them to tell you make and model.

So AWD with all snow tires. Nothing will help you on ice except studs and not allowed in Ontario or Quebec. Neither are chains. So part of it is learning to drive in the conditions.
 

crgildart

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It's cold enough in the NYC and LI area November through February to justify running snows even though it doesn't snow as often there as up state. It's running snows on warm roads that kills the tread way faster than normal tires. If I lived there and ventured up to ski country more than 2-3 times a season I'd definitely be running snows in winter.
 

crgildart

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Nothing will help you on ice except studs and not allowed in Ontario or Quebec. Neither are chains. So part of it is learning to drive in the conditions.

A soft, spongy rubber compound with siping (little slits cut close together) creates suction on ice which provides more grip than a harder rubber compound without the siping. Yes, still apples and oranges comparing a good snow tire to studs or chains on ice, but still WAY better than a regular all season on ice..
 

jmeb

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...It's running snows on warm roads that kills the tread way faster than normal tires. ...

This used to be true, but it's becoming less so. New rubber compounds are very impressive. Otherwise companies wouldn't be offering 55K tread life warranties on snow-rated tires.
 

Chris Walker

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I have limited storage space for a second set of tires/rims (and I'm too cheap to want to pay for storage). I've been running all seasons the last couple of years and while I haven't gotten stuck or gone off the road, I do need to take it easy around curves on snowy days. This means using the pullouts a lot coming down the pass (but at least I do use the pullouts instead of collecting a train of grumpy snow tire cars ogsmile).

I'm considering just running snow tires year 'round once I'm ready for a new set of tires. I drive a lot less in the summer and I can't imagine it making that much of a difference in tire life if I do so. Am I just fooling myself? Of course I found a lot of articles online advising me not to do that, but I did notice they were all posted on tire companies' web sites, so maybe they just want to sell me more tires.

The other knock against snow tires in the summer besides faster wear is decreased performance. Now I don't do anything I would consider "high performance driving" but I can see how in an emergency situation, having reduced responsiveness in my tires could pose a safety risk. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and clear out some space in the garage...
 

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