Skis and Trees

[Living Proof]

Let me begin by stating my tree skiing experience is very limited, as my home Pa. ski mountain has almost no tree skiing. What little they have also is a magnet for creating rock skis. My experience is mostly on western trips and then mostly in older snow glades. So, making turns around trees, in existing ruts, at very pedestrian speeds, is what I do. There is plenty of video posted showing tree skiing that is much more dynamic, especially in new snow, not sure if I, or most, have the chops to ski it. But, we would all like to try it for sure.

People posting for advice about getting a new ski always seek a ski they can take into trees. It seems to me, that I take whatever works for the rest of the mountain into trees, simply because that's what underfoot. My thinking is it's a lot more about the archer than the arrow, maybe tree skiing requires us all to suck-it-up and ski more aggressively. There are no tree-skiing specific skis, and, the all-mountain ski term is very broad.

So, here's the question. I you really want to concentrate on tree skiing, what characteristics make a ski excel in trees? Or, what type skis should be avoided? Any thoughts on how to increase tree skiing skills?

 

[Philpug]

Actually it is a real good question, what makes a good tree ski? I will first digress a bit with your other points. Yes, it is an Indian/Arrow thing first and foremost. Most competent skiers have the skis to ski trees, it is the confidence and vision that they lack. When in trees, looking where you want to go and where you DON"T want to go is key, You want to go where it is white, in the snow and not where it is brown & green, into the trees. You will need cat like reflexes to make immediate changes in direction. It is a shame there isn't much skiing tree skiing in the Poconos, Jack Frost actually has some trees over on the East side IIRC and Blue Knob can be darn fun..I know Elk has some trees that would be a ton of fun so ski in. As far as using rock skis, well, usually because the coverage tends to be thinner in the trees, especially in the east, either you enter the woods with rock skis or you exit the woods with them.

Now, what makes good tree ski? The twowo things that I take a look at for someone that is "Looking for a ski that is good in the trees" is flex and shape, and the latter encompasses much. Let's start with flex, I want a ski that bends easy and low to medium speeds because you tend not to ski trees as fast as you ski open terrain. A ski that bends will allow you to change direction easily. Now with shape, this is where there is a lot of things to look at. Lets start with rocker or early rise depending on what term you prefer, I prefer a gradual design in both the tis and importantly in the tail. This again will allow the ski to change direction easily and since the snow and terrain in the trees in usually ungulating and three dimensional, the rocker allows the ski to change contact length depending on terrain and condition. Taper and sidecut are also important. Less taper in the tip & tale takes away the nervousness of the ski, than nervousness is felt when the tip and tail catch in the varied conditions, you want to be able to release the tail immediately and instinctively to change directions yet have it hold when it is firm. Width comes into play, what are the conditions and how deep is the snow, unless you hit a huge powder day, which is why some of us ski the trees, lets concentrate on what that mid ski quiver ski would be good, I suggest starting with a ski in the upper 80mm to just around 100mm underfoot with the narrower end being good in the east and wider as you move west. Finesse/lighter skiers verses Power/heavier skiers will work that scale also.

Skis that I like in the trees (but not limited to):
Atomic Automatic 102
Head Venturi 95
K2 Pinnacle 95/105
Nordica Enforcer/Soul Rider
Rossignol Sin7/Soul 7
Salomon Q-Max 98

All of these skis are fun and easy. Sure any of a dozen people can come up with examples when you might want a slalom ski or even a 115mm reverse camber option but this is for Living Proof and 90% of the skiers that have the question rattling around in their head. The other 10% already knows what tool they need and want. LP, notice that one of your skis is on my list, the rest is in that interface between your boots and your helmet, the toughest interface in all of skiing.

 

[Monique]

People posting for advice about getting a new ski always seek a ski they can take into trees. It seems to me, that I take whatever works for the rest of the mountain into trees, simply because that's what underfoot. My thinking is it's a lot more about the archer than the arrow, maybe tree skiing requires us all to suck-it-up and ski more aggressively. There are no tree-skiing specific skis, and, the all-mountain ski term is very broad.

I mean, yes, you're right, but that's true for every scenario. I have taken a 125mm ski into the bumps, because that was the ski on my feet at the time. Back in the day, plenty of people were taking GS skis into the bumps, too. But that doesn't mean that some skis aren't better than others in certain scenarios.

I ski Colorado, and once the trees get enough coverage (typically around mid-December), I will be in the trees pretty much every ski day till they aren't available anymore, which last season was I think mid to late May. I won't go in if it's boilerplate ruts, which I think is more common out East, but that isn't often an issue. I would not necessarily call my technique "dynamic", but I do ski some pretty steep and gnarly sections. Probably not as tight as what you find out East, if reputation holds. On a stormy or cloudy day, the trees protect me from the cold and improve visibility - skiing in the trees is just the best choice some days. There are also lots of glades at Breck that are either mellow in pitch or pretty wide open or both. Many of my favorite trees to ski are mellow pitches with fairly tight trees - the ones the little kids love, too. The ones where there's one or two obvious lines, maybe a gully, and you duck in and out of the line as you careen down the slope, hooting and hollering. That is, if you're doing it right.

So anyway, because I ski trees throughout the season, yes, trees are a factor in my ski choice. But that just means I might go a little shorter to make turns easier and because it makes me feel a little better to think that I just have *that* much extra room if my turn takes me too close to a tree. If there's lots of soft snow, the fat smeary ski that I'm already using elsewhere on the mountain is just fine. If there isn't a ton of soft snow, then the choice I make for the rest of the mountain will apply just as well - with the caveat that there are usually stashes of soft snow in the trees well after they've been wiped off of open runs. So to me, conditions dictate the ski, and the conditions will be more or less the same in the trees as they are everywhere else on the mountain.

I hadn't really thought of shape and rocker in the trees the way Phil describes - he makes some good points. Especially the "slower skis means you might want more flex" thing.

 

[SBrown]

That DPS 112 is the best tree ski I ever had, I think. So quick and easy to pivot and slide and scrub speed when necessary, all without even turning on my brain. I am able to ski trees much faster on those than on other skis. But yeah, you can ski trees on anything (maybe DH boards wouldn't be a good idea), you just have to adjust technique and speed.

 

[Ron]

Tree skiing; all tree skiing is not the same. Really depends on where and the conditions. Trees that are less than 5-6' apart are different from trees that are 10' apart, captain obvious strikes! But seriously, Tree skiing is really bump skiing with a much higher penalty for errors.. So go work on your bump skiing and learn to look ahead 2-3 turns and learn to control your speed and turn shape. In open bumps you have the ability to ski wherever you want, not the case always in the trees. Ski-wise, as Phil stated, wider isn't really better in that on steeper terrain, they want to ski faster. for powder days (at least 5-6") Compliant is key. I like the ski's listed above plus the Salomon Q-105 and Nordica Patron too. The Soul7 and Q105 have been about the easiest for Steamboat trees. This year, I am skiing the Enforcer and based on early experience, this one needs to be on the tree-list.

Come on out to the boat and We'll do a tree clinic!

 

[Monique]

Tree skiing is really bump skiing with a much higher penalty for errors..

I like to say this, too, but I think tree skiing is usually easier/different - because the lines (f they exist) are developed by better skiers, and are typically more rounded and swoopy. And if they don't exist, you're just skiing powder with enforced turning. I find tree skiing much easier than bump skiing. I suck at bump skiing, but I think I'm decent in trees.

 

[Ron]

I like to say this, too, but I think tree skiing is usually easier/different - because the lines (f they exist) are developed by better skiers, and are typically more rounded and swoopy. And if they don't exist, you're just skiing powder with enforced turning. I find tree skiing much easier than bump skiing. I suck at bump skiing, but I think I'm decent in trees.

..... when it gets steeper and tighter and tracked, it turns into luge tracks or you get 2' drops into the wells of the turn you better be able to control your speed on blind luge turns. if you can't , Ouch.....

in the long run, being a better bump skier will help you everywhere.

 

[Monique]

umm, not here..... when it gets steeper and tighter and tracked, it turns into a luge tracks or you get 2' drops into the wells of the turn you better be able to control your speed on blind luge turns. if you can't , Ouch.....

in the long run, being a better bump skier will help you everywhere.

Oh, hell, I'm the first to tell you I need to get better at bump skiing, and that it will help me everywhere. No arguments here.

But the luge turns are fun .... and in my experience usually wide enough that you can fan out the tails and smear for some speed control, or ride the outside where the snow is softer and slows you down a bit. At least luge turns are rounded. Sometimes they still freak me out, but I spent some time last season working on this type of skiing. Maybe we're talking about different things. Not sure about the 2' drops, can't picture. As always, there are plenty of skiers out there better than me, including most of the people on pugski definitionally ;-)

 

[Ron]

When you come up here I will take you into some lines where the turns are more like deep troughed bumps that require fast turns in succession

I work on bumps constantly

 

[Monique]

When you come up here I will take you into some lines where the turns are more like deep troughed bumps that require fast turns in succession

I work on bumps constantly

I look forward to skiing with you, even if it requires deeply troughed bumpy trees. What ski would you recommend? ;-)

 

[Ron]

see above you have the Santa Ana's right? perfect. Unless its a foot or more, you don't need anything wider. The tapered tips and tails and dialed rocker give the ski more float that the width implies, that ski is ideal

 

[John Webb]

I tree ski a lot.
Very simple, There is only one rule: Don't hit a tree. LOL

Actually any trees less than 2 inches can be run down !

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Fat and rockered is what it's all about. I think the Nordica Patron is the best tree ski I've ever been on.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

..... when it gets steeper and tighter and tracked, it turns into luge tracks or you get 2' drops into the wells of the turn you better be able to control your speed on blind luge turns. if you can't , Ouch.....

in the long run, being a better bump skier will help you everywhere.

When it gets to be a luge run, that's where it really helps to have some camber under foot. That's where a ski like the older Katana switches from being fun to being scary.

 

[Ron]

Fat and rockered is what it's all about. I think the Nordica Patron is the best tree ski I've ever been on.

Hey Great to see you here! I agree about the Patron, I mentioned it above. My only issue with the patron the amount of tail rocker. I also think wider ski's just want to run in the trees due to the float, it makes it more difficult for those learning to control turn shape and speed. I have evolved to prefer going a little slower and focus more on accuracy. I really think a ski like a Soul7, Q105 in our trees are great choices. The Enforcer and the Sali 100 is another example of less is more. With the newer designs ski's designed for soft snow and powder dont have to be as wide underfoot to give adequate float. It also helps that Colorado snow in general is light and easy of course, i would be remiss if I didn't mention our "Champagne" powder....

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I like the extra size float and tail rocker because it gives more freedom from the snow and makes it easier to turn. I feel that when there is more tip rocker than tail it can start to feel like a freight-train. I'd actually love to see the Patron shape with all of it's tail rocker brought to a narrower Enforcer size ski.

 

[Philpug]

Of the skis over 110mm, yes the Patron IS one of the best. .

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

Even though I didn't ski trees yesterday (closed and not enough snow), the Patron was money for the directed skiing and rope drops at Copper. Fun ski.

 

[Daves not here]

Great. Got the Patrons on a steal of a deal this year. Excited to ride them. Now I have to go get the Enforcer Phil told me to get!

 

[cantunamunch]

All of these skis are fun and easy. Sure any of a dozen people can come up with examples when you might want a slalom ski or even a 115mm reverse camber option but this is for Living Proof and 90% of the skiers that have the question rattling around in their head. The other 10% already knows what tool they need and want. LP, notice that one of your skis is on my list, the rest is in that interface between your boots and your helmet, the toughest interface in all of skiing.

May I ask what ski you would recommend on that very narrowest end? I am very specifically asking for icy irregular bumpy trees (no fresh!) such as Kangourou , Sous-bois Puma, or Sous-bois V at Sutton.

Is there something that is flexwise similar to the old 70-something waist Fischer Big Stix, shapewise similar to an Elan 777 - except maybe better?