Colorado Silverton Struggles To Survive In The Vail Epic Era......

[Dave Marshak]

They are looking at a pretty small market niche: committed skiers with enough money for guides, cats and helicopters, but not interested in first class dining and drinking. I'm in, but I can't get many of my friends to go, and I won't go guided skiing with a group that may have a gaper in it. Actually, I am rapidly becoming the gaper, so there's that...
The VR/Walmart comparison is interesting. If the VR business model dominates, who supports the small local areas where most people actually learn to ski? Does anyone believe the big-buck ski vacation business can survive if no one has an opportunity to learn to ski before they get to Vail? or is your wife gonna let you drag her to Steaux when she can go to Grand Cayman for the same money?

dm

 

[fatbob]

Silverton is to my mind in the sort of niche that is nothing like in competition with Vail. It's like saying La Grave is in competition with the 3V.

I've been curious enough about it to drive by in the summer to check it out but never made it in winter mainly due to the lack of an unguided day ticket and the remote location. I spend a lot on travelling to ski and enjoy mountains so Petrick is right that resorts have to do a lot to earn my spend when I have regular skiing covered by an epic or MCP or whatever.

(+ I skied Vail over Xmas, bar the odd day when they had problematic lift outages I can remember very little adverse overcrowding that the little guys like to bang on about. If you know your traffic mgt tactics like a local that is of course)

 

[Jim Kenney]

Sounds like the death knell to me. Not that I wish that on them. They know their business model far better than me, but I'd actually look at the opposite. Build a Hostel X type of barebones structure beside the base of the chairlift and welcome a higher volume of unguided dirtbag skiers/boarders.

 

[SBrown]

Sounds like the death knell to me. Not that I wish that on them. They know their business model far better than me, but I'd actually look at the opposite. Build a Hostel X type of barebones structure beside the base of the chairlift and welcome a higher volume of unguided dirtbag skiers/boarders.

They claim they can't sell more unguided passes, but the only time they allowed unguided skiing was in December or late March/April, never the heart of the season. So... who would really know?

 

[Jerez]

As I understand it, they had (have?) severe restrictions on the unguided skiing they can offer. It was part of the deal to bring people to a place where they couldn't do the kind of extensive avalanche control that is done at resorts. In exchange, they are required to do mostly guided skiing. I don't know why the Forest Service allowed unguided in early and late season, but the dates that it was allowed were so restricted that Silverton apparently can't get the volume to justify it.

 

[Crank]

My friends went and did not love the guided, snow farming aspect. Couldn't ski where they wanted to I guess. I would like to check it out someday if in the region.

 

[SBrown]

https://www.durangotelegraph.com/opinion/soap-box/cold-hard-truth-of-silverton-mtn/

 

[pais alto]

https://www.durangotelegraph.com/opinion/soap-box/cold-hard-truth-of-silverton-mtn/

I gave up on that when it got into the paranoid fantasy of BLM redistricting and transferring a manager just to allow SM to permit the hell skiing expansion. I worked for BLM for many years and that small-town take on the internal machinations of BLM is hilariously, and somewhat tragically, myopic.

 

[SBrown]

I gave up on that when it got into the paranoid fantasy of BLM redistricting and transferring a manager just to allow SM to permit the hell skiing expansion. I worked for BLM for many years and that small-town take on the internal machinations of BLM is hilariously, and somewhat tragically, myopic.

Yeah -- as we all know, there are always two (public) sides and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. But both sides should at least be revealed, so that the middle can be approximated.

 

[scott43]

They are looking at a pretty small market niche: committed skiers with enough money for guides, cats and helicopters, but not interested in first class dining and drinking. I'm in, but I can't get many of my friends to go, and I won't go guided skiing with a group that may have a gaper in it. Actually, I am rapidly becoming the gaper, so there's that...
The VR/Walmart comparison is interesting. If the VR business model dominates, who supports the small local areas where most people actually learn to ski? Does anyone believe the big-buck ski vacation business can survive if no one has an opportunity to learn to ski before they get to Vail? or is your wife gonna let you drag her to Steaux when she can go to Grand Cayman for the same money?

dm

Yeah I was kinda thinking this myself. I'm not sure people who would go to Silverton are being lured necessarily to Vail-type resorts, are they? I'm sure I'm fairly typical of East coast skiers..we have one trip a year out west and it's a vacation..give me hot tubs, ski-in/ski-out, good beer and food please. If I were to go by myself, yeah, I might go to Silverton and hack it up. But my wife and kid won't go there, period. I'm thinking there are a lot of people like me.

 

[PisteOff]

Yeah I was kinda thinking this myself. I'm not sure people who would go to Silverton are being lured necessarily to Vail-type resorts, are they? I'm sure I'm fairly typical of East coast skiers..we have one trip a year out west and it's a vacation..give me hot tubs, ski-in/ski-out, good beer and food please. If I were to go by myself, yeah, I might go to Silverton and hack it up. But my wife and kid won't go there, period. I'm thinking there are a lot of people like me.

My wife, never. My son and I would go do it......on our way to Telluride.....

 

[PisteOff]

Yeah -- as we all know, there are always two (public) sides and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. But both sides should at least be revealed, so that the middle can be approximated.

Given some of the many stunts the BLM has pulled in recent years I am angulated....errr, inclined to find the Durango Telegraph piece likely close to the truth......

 

[pais alto]

Given some of the many stunts the BLM has pulled in recent years I am angulated....errr, inclined to find the Durango Telegraph piece likely close to the truth......

Here's a little of my reasoning (backed up by internal experience with BLM at the state and national level) as to why that's a little ridiculous. IME, if the BLM district manager (who is over the field manager), state director, or someone in the Washington DC level (next step up) wanted the heli permit approved, rather than go to the trouble and expense of moving someone from Alaska to approve it, they would simply tell the field manager to do it and it would happen. That kind of chain of command is in place and that's how it works. Moving someone across different offices in BLM pretty much always has a lot more at stake than something like a single winter use permit. To think that the district office realignment had anything to do with getting the permit approved is, like I said, hilariously myopic.

Though the area in question is very important to some of the residents of Silverton (though likely not to the many that are there because of mining), it has been heavily mined and BLM looks at SM as a successful business, and I believe that BLM figures that recreational bc skiers have Red Mountain Pass, Coal Bank and Molas passes, and Mineral Creek and all sorts of other areas to pursue their arcane pastime. So, with all the other bigger deal things that the BLM has on its plate - mining and reclamation, range, river recreation, archaeology, fire, wildlife, wilderness, oil and gas...they figured wtf and approved the permit and got on to other, bigger issues.

I say all that with my sympathies lying with the backcountry skiers, 'cause I am one. But I think the better people understand the realities behind the government's part in this, the better able they will be to address the issues.

 

[PisteOff]

Here's a little of my reasoning (backed up by internal experience with BLM at the state and national level) as to why that's a little ridiculous. IME, if the BLM district manager (who is over the field manager), state director, or someone in the Washington DC level (next step up) wanted the heli permit approved, rather than go to the trouble and expense of moving someone from Alaska to approve it, they would simply tell the field manager to do it and it would happen. That kind of chain of command is in place and that's how it works. Moving someone across different offices in BLM pretty much always has a lot more at stake than something like a single winter use permit. To think that the district office realignment had anything to do with getting the permit approved is, like I said, hilariously myopic.

Though the area in question is very important to some of the residents of Silverton (though likely not to the many that are there because of mining), it has been heavily mined and BLM looks at SM as a successful business, and I believe that BLM figures that recreational bc skiers have Red Mountain Pass, Coal Bank and Molas passes, and Mineral Creek and all sorts of other areas to pursue their arcane pastime. So, with all the other bigger deal things that the BLM has on its plate - mining and reclamation, range, river recreation, archaeology, fire, wildlife, wilderness, oil and gas...they figured wtf and approved the permit and got on to other, bigger issues.

I say all that with my sympathies lying with the backcountry skiers, 'cause I am one. But I think the better people understand the realities behind the government's part in this, the better able they will be to address the issues.

It would seem that Aron is more the problem than anything else..... There are a couple of circumstances here that would lead someone already suspicious of BLM activities to easily grasp at a conspiracy, or a payoff, etc. I certainly don't discount your experience. I whole heartedly agree with your last paragraph. The government doesn't really seem to be the problem here. It is an unreasonable expectation that they would fix this problem for this author and others of his mindset. It seems his best route would be to galvanize the city council and the folks of Silverton. They ultimately are responsible for the well being of their community.

 

[nay]

who supports the small local areas where most people actually learn to ski?

Poeple who have small local areas instead of big resorts with lots of terrain.

 

[no edge]

Off topic a bit, but what if you get placed into a group and you have trouble keeping up? Or what if you are way better than the others? How do they deal with that?

I'd really like to try it but my stamina would be a problem. My skills would be fine but they might put me in a group that is for weak skills. That would not be ok. Place sounds awesome.

 

[Monique]

I'd really like to try it but my stamina would be a problem. My skills would be fine but they might put me in a group that is for weak skills.

This describes me perfectly.

My answer to this is, the only way to really prevent this situation and hard feelings is to bring your own crew. I think you need 8 for a full group.

 

[pais alto]

Off topic a bit, but what if you get placed into a group and you have trouble keeping up? Or what if you are way better than the others? How do they deal with that?

They wait on you.

It's best if you can fill a group with like-minded friends.

 

[Tricia]

Right ... they have slowly taken away unguided skiing to the point that now there will be none at all.

The comments about Vail and Wal-Mart are kind of funny. Someone posted in a facebook thread. "If the company that offers $800 unlimited season passes that are accepted at ski resorts across North America is "Wal-Mart",... then what is his resort that offers $900 day heli-day passes? And increasingly shorter unguided skiing windows? Prada? .... they are [now] essentially a heli ski operation with a side gig as a guided ski hill with marginal snow."

In doing this, they are taking away access from the locals. They aren't dropping $1,000 on heli days, or even $160 on guided days. What they had was backcountry terrain and unguided days, and now that's history, too.

I've never really understood this whole guided/unguided thing until recently.

I always thought I could go to Silverton, by a ticket and ski. I always knew it was a gnarly ass mountain, and you'd be wise to ski it with someone who had knowledge of the area and some skills, but now I'm really getting it.

Essentially, I can only ski Silverton if I pay for a guided day (or more than a day) or if I pay for a heli experience. Do I have this right?

That doesn't seem easily attainable.
I can see why many of the core locals are not terribly pleased with this.

 

[PisteOff]

I've never really understood this whole guided/unguided thing until recently.

I always thought I could go to Silverton, by a ticket and ski. I always knew it was a gnarly ass mountain, and you'd be wise to ski it with someone who had knowledge of the area and some skills, but now I'm really getting it.

Essentially, I can only ski Silverton if I pay for a guided day (or more than a day) or if I pay for a heli experience. Do I have this right?

That doesn't seem easily attainable.
I can see why many of the core locals are not terribly pleased with this.

Nailed it.....