Retro/Vintage Talk...

Discussion in 'Gear Heritage, Museum, Retro and "All Things..."' started by Bill Talbot, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. crgildart

    crgildart Gravity Slave Skier

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    My first garage sale skis were cable binding wood skis strapped to rubber SNOWMOBILE BOOTS.. the kind with the nylon zipper and drawstring top, thick felt removable liners. Just for back yard skiing though. I eventually got real plastic ski boots that were usually at least two full sizes too big for my scrawny little kid body parts..
     
  2. RickyG

    RickyG Booting up Skier

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    Asking about favorite era's for equipment I find myself going all philosophical. I started skiing in 1970 (trying to influence a young lady who's parents were on the WP ski patrol that I was OK...impressing the young lady...0...falling in love with skiing 100!) another hook for me was the wonderful array of technology, cool and interesting skis, boots, bindings. Cars EXPENSIVE ski equipment not so much. But a 19 year old me had to reach deep for the joy of owning the cool piece of hardware that caught my fancy. The really snap to reality was I didn't have the skills to tackle that cool equipment, what that means to me, is that instead of me being able to report how much I liked that ski or boot often the equipment found me wanting. My first ski that I bought for myself a 205 Fisher Imperator, Look Nevada bindings, and Lange Comp boots. To boil this down to a reality check that equipment kicked my ****. OK wake up call, which by then I was working in skis shops (Andel's Pro Shop, and later Jerry Jolly's...Denverites do these names ring bells?). Being 19 or 20 years of age and spending my time learning about the reality of the hardware we mounted, tuned, and sold I started being able to both grow as a skier and have a better feel for equipment compatible with me.

    So era's that ring true to me...that early experience in those ski shops and seeing things like the original Hexcel Comp (funny cracked edges in the very tip that lasted just the first year), Olin MK II VCE, Dynamic VR 17 or the Colorado built VR 70s, Head XR-1s HRPs, K2-4 Comps, Dynastar S40 and MV2. Lange, Nordica, Raichle, Scott, Hanson (Jolly was one of the first to handle the Hanson ski boot, and I got some Internationals, as me about hot wax injecting a boot) To me it was like working at an exotic car dealership. Every weekend a demo ski was on my feet, growing as a rate I couldn't understand at the time. So this time is golden to me...as a mater of fact I have a 195 set of Hexcel Comps down stairs that I'm going to install modern bindings on and enjoy.

    Enough for now...but my freestyle coaching years...RBL, THE, K2 Spademan fun times and equipment re-inventing it's self to match the freestyle ethic.
     
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  3. Uncle-A

    Uncle-A Getting off the lift Skier

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    Era's of skiing could fall into generations of equipment, and I only have started to think this way recently. It came to me after thinking of cell phones most of our cell phones are what you call 4G phones or 4th Generation so I started putting skis into generations. Now maybe some of you may slide some of these up or down a generation but that is what this thread is about. So here goes:

    Generation I = Wood Skis and Wood Skis with Screwed on Edges.
    Generation II = Metal and Fiberglass Straight Skis
    Generation III = Shape Skis
    Generation IV = Fat Skis

    Some of you may call them categories but as things get developed I tend to think of them as Generations.

    Have fun!!!
     
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  4. Jerez

    Jerez Getting on the lift Skier

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    Gen -1 was before lifts when skins were mandatory 'cause you had to climb up. Coming full circle are we?
     
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  5. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Head First Skier

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    can we use 'epochs' instead?
     
  6. Bill Talbot

    Bill Talbot Vintage Gear Curator Industry Insider

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    I think your Gen II needs more breakdown. The straight skis in the late 80's through to the beginning of 'shape' were light years from the early metal/glass offerings. So AT LEAST 5 or 6 groupings for starters. Also this is not just about skis... bindings and boots also made great strides in your II grouping. It'll turn into a giant fishbone in no time at all!!!
     
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  7. Bill Talbot

    Bill Talbot Vintage Gear Curator Industry Insider

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    True for solid wood skis but the laminated, screwed on edges were through the 60's. With glorious rope tows, J and T bars, Pomas' and fixed grip chairs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 10:07 AM
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  8. Bad Bob

    Bad Bob Getting off the lift Skier

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    Got totally hooked at about 13 (the mid 60's). My folks joined a little ski club with a hill of about 100' vertical alpine hill. The first line I ever poached was the landing of the 90 meter jump hill; jumpers got a little upset at me for that one, learned to be less obvious after that. But that little hill gave me my first couple of 100+ day seasons, and that led to a very well mis-spent youth.

    Got hooked on gear kind of backwards. Sure I would go drewel on the skis at the local sports shop but I was teaching by the time I was 15 and an examiner by 21. Started doing fill in sales work at the ski shops before the Holidays and suddenly found myself in the shop mounting and tuning to fill a sale. Got to play with lots of the demos, and rarely bought any hard goods (loved the reps).

    Favorite era for gear; the early 70's. Plastic boots were starting to get serious, Ski technology accelerated, the ski techniques changed radically because of the equipment. Every year was revolutionary in the equipment. Freestyle was born, pot was cheap, and strech pants got a lot tighter :golfclap:. That was a very good time to be a practicing ski bum worshiping at Ullr's alter.
     
  9. Uncle-A

    Uncle-A Getting off the lift Skier

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    I was trying to avoid the fish bone effect that is why I put all the straight skis together. Yes you could do a Generation thing for boots and bindings as well but I just started with skis.
     
  10. crgildart

    crgildart Gravity Slave Skier

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    Ya, the late 90s produced a few FAT straight skis too. There were fat straight skis then shaped skis then fat shaped skis... RD Coyote Helidogs are one example.I don't think width is a good descriptor.. not as much as construction or shape is. Skis definitely got shorter as shapes got deeper though.. But again, there was a short straight ski fad in the mid 70s... So, shape works better than width as a variable unique to decades..
     
  11. Philpug

    Philpug Gathermeister--Utah Admin Pugski Ski Tester

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    The first ski that alwasy comes to mind was the Elan FUDD. Of course the Chubb, Olin Outer Limits, Volkl Explosiv. and Dynstar BIG were some others.
     
  12. Jerez

    Jerez Getting on the lift Skier

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    should have spelled it out, I meant generation minus 1 ogwink
     
  13. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Head First Skier

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    for extra super bonus points name the first french binding (make & model & year) that came with factory brakes >90mm
     
  14. RickyG

    RickyG Booting up Skier

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    Hi gang...me again...this is turning the old gears a lot...observations...the below is mixing construction/materials vs. shape

    Generation I = Wood Skis and Wood Skis with Screwed on Edges.
    Generation II = Metal and Fiberglass Straight Skis
    Generation III = Shape Skis
    Generation IV = Fat Skis

    My thoughts run like this:
    Pre-Petrochemical
    a. Wood
    b. Elmer's Glue
    c. Paint and or varnish
    Post Petrochemical revolution:
    a. Fiberglass
    b. Epoxy Resin
    c. Specialized Metals (aircraft aluminum 6061 T6, edges cracked and straight of a high Rockwell rating)
    d. High density Foam (core material)
    e. Injection molded parts (tip/tail/dampening components)
    f. Synthetic Rubbers
    g. Extruded urethanes
    h. High performance plastic base materials
    I. Syntheitic dampening piezoelectric effect/Non-Newtonian materials
    j. The family of fibers beyond "fiberglass" Kevlar, Carbon, Boron
    k. Unique core materials, expanded aluminum honeycomb, air (yup air), two part expanding foam
    Construction-Assembly techniques:
    a. Sandwich (metal or glass or both- over- hard wood or hard two part foam (needs to absorb the shear loads that "Clark" foam will not)
    b. Box Construction sometimes known as "monocauqe" think F1 racecar (fiberglass or other man made fiber material wrapped around the core material with epoxy resin or other polyester resins to hold everything together making the box around the core the main load bearing unit. So with that said the core isn't doing much so the lighter Clark foams or even air can be used to take the space up between the internal shape.
    c. Cap take on sandwich were the top skin reaches down to meet the edges. Salomon, Volant
    Shape/Profiles
    a. side cut
    b. camber
    c. tip/tail rise
    d. sidewall shape
    a. Side cut
    b. Camber
    c. Tip/Tail rise
    We now have a cool set of materials and potential shapes to make what ever combination of these things that will give us the desired outcome.
    To me it's the market places demands that drive ski designers to make new designs...except a couple of moments were adventurous designers made product that launched a hole new era (Head/Lange/Elan (super shape)...
    a. Birth of the metal ski:
    Solid wood skis sucked...Howard Head spent years figuring out how to get honeycomb (yes honeycomb remember he was an aeronautical engineer for Martin)
    wood and metal to stick together.

     
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  15. RickyG

    RickyG Booting up Skier

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    Sorry I sometime try to treat this software like MS Word...forgetting that a return is "post"
    b. Birth of the Fiberglass sandwich ski or Fiberglass Metal hybrid (kneissl, Rossignol, Dynastar S430-MV2, Head, Hart etc...)
    c. Birth of the Fiberglass Box Construction Dynamic, K2, Graves, Northland, Durafiber/Head XR 1
    d. Cap ski metal and or fiber family (glass/carbon/Kevlar etc.) Salomon, Volant

    So after all of this the real delineator of the era of skis is the change in technique/desired outcome.
    Era 1. Head, Hart (metal sandwich) etc.. gave the everyday consumers a strong ski of reasonable performance at a reasonable price. Eventually became accepted by racers and those improvements gave everyone skis that allowed skiers to do the unimaginable after coming off pure (pre-petrochemical) wood skis
    Era 2 Box construction skis and the "New French Ski Technique" Dynamic VR 17, K2...etc. Suddenly the flex balance shifted from stiff tip to stiff tail and the side cut center moved to the rear to allow "jet turns", down unweighting,
    Era 3
    Both of the above construction approaches were used to answer the call of "Hot Dogging" "Freestyle" skis got shorter, lighter, softer (longitudinally), stiffer torsionally, and just flat stronger. Hot Dogger asked things of their equipment that had never been asked before...what's the old joke in the bike world "strong/light/cheap pick two" the real spin off that that also added to the type of ski being offered the "short ski". A ski that was shorter but had the skiing dynamics of a longer ski. So higher polar moment of inertia, higher camber.
    Era 4 Real world cup skis Atomic Bionics, K2 710/810/910 Rossi ST/FP, Spalding Sideral....and so on. Serious skis for experts
    Era 5 Big mountain skis (first gen) K2 KVC comes to mind help me think of more (this is about the time I left the industry for aerospace)
    Era 6 Shape? Don't give me that old school crud...I'm completely free to experiment and try different things. Still sandwich, or box, or cap, but sidecuts went wild, camber? Tip spay that would of had us throwing the ski away at RBL became a design center piece. No holds bared. Also the return of the "boutique" manufactures.

    So that is my thoughts about what to make a ski from/how to place it together to get your desired structure/and how shape defines the moment in the time line of our sport. Now what about ski boots and binding. They had there impact on the ski design. Which came first high back boots or stiff tailed skis? Those stiffer boots could transfer energy with such fidelity that binding suddenly became over loaded and broke or simply couldn't hold the skier in.

    Ok..sorry but this is how my mind works...the magic of the hardware of our sport brings this out in me. Now can you imagine why I stay out of ski shops anymore? I really could use some input from you all about a shop that understands and cares about such things not some 19 year old that is more turned on by the pro skiing on their latest pro deal ski.

    Oh by the way what happened to bindings? To say they seem to be an after thought these days is an understatement. I used to be proud of my understanding of the dynamics of ski/boot/binding interface...now no one seems to care.

    now I'm done...promise...Rick
     
  16. crgildart

    crgildart Gravity Slave Skier

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    ^^^Wider footprint bindings, wider base/sole lug boots are probably on the horizon and already on the drawing board.
     
  17. Philpug

    Philpug Gathermeister--Utah Admin Pugski Ski Tester

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    No, keep 'em coming!!! :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
     
  18. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Head First Skier

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    Pre-WWI chemists need a bit more credit there; they invented phenolic resins in the 1900s. Once you have phenolic resins, you can make any number of things - including Bakelite electrical sockets, WW2 PT boats (it wasn't urethanes or epoxies that held those plywoods together) and ... Rossi Stratos.

    So - yeah - epoxy and fiberglass and urethanes are very much the hipster latecomers to the lamination party.
     
  19. RickyG

    RickyG Booting up Skier

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    Now I didn't say there were not some very smart people out there. My favorite piece of WW II military wood construction is the de Havilland Mosquito...
    " The original glue was Casein-based, later replaced by "Aerolite", a synthetic urea-formaldehyde, which was more durable. Many other types of screws and flanges (made of various woods) also held the structure together.The fuselage construction joints were made from balsa wood and plywood strips with the spruce multi-ply being connected by a balsa V joint, along with the interior frame. The spruce would be reinforced by plywood strips at the point where the two halves joined to form the V-joint. Located on top of the joint the plywood formed the outer skin." (yes this is from Wikipedia but for this level of academic research it will do) [
     

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  20. Bill Talbot

    Bill Talbot Vintage Gear Curator Industry Insider

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    Since I'm a great believer in...:useless:

    Rossi Strato 03.jpg Rossignol Strato 102.jpg

    Rossi Stratix.jpg
    Rossi Strato 05.jpg
     
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