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ScotsSkier

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Extreme, welcome to Pugski.

I would agree with you on the plates, they are definitely a lot more lightweight on these. However, there is also a difference in construction. Most of these slalom-lites will simply not stand up to gate-bashing in the way a race stock slalom does. And, why would you buy a ski, then a different plate and binding, that ends up costing you more than the real thing???? :huh: As I said, if you are serious about running gates, do yourself a favor and buy the right tool the first time, always cheaper in the end.

A plug boot is certainly good, but you also need to be careful you dont end up in too stiff a boot, a very common mistake among Masters racers. Just noticed a good article in the latest USSA masters newsletter by Matt Schiller (Park City Boot room, PSIA full cert, USSA National level coach) making the very same point.

WRT tweener/Masters GS skis, do a quick search and you will find a similar article I have previously written on this topic. Most of the "Masters" skis are the same construction and plates as the race-stock but using the old pre 30/35m molds.
 

extremecarver

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Well - because maybe you still have a proper plate and binding lying around. After putting a Vist V16 Worldcup on an Atomic redster I had given up cause it simply could not hold up on ruts and harder snow - I found lot's of fun in the ski again. Yes - it has only one layer of titanal, but actually still is not that soft. Proper plate onto it and it skis way better - without any disadvantages that I could notice (except you need to ski a bit more active - it hooks up easier, and let's go less easy from the edge while carving).

It's still not about running gates - just about having a ski that does not suck on a beat up machine made only snow slope - which are right now the norm in the Eastern Alps (or better since about 6 weeks nearly no natural snow and Foehn taking any away). If you simply want a ski to rail it turns on such snow - those non fis slalom skis usually are simply not up to it - or only for a couple of runs until the edge is even the slightest degraded. Take a FIS slalom and rail turns all day though - or put proper plates on the non fis slalom ski and do the same.
Also FIS SL tend to cost a lot more than non FIS SL at least here in Europe (and a good plate has no EOL - you can keep on using it pretty much forever).


About boots too stiff - around Austria I get told by many bootfitters they don't stock the Fischer RC4 Vacuum Pro plugs, cause they are too soft even for 13-14 year olds. So maybe that's a good alternative (dunno as I'm still on the old non Vacuum RC4 Pro which is much much stiffer than my 130 Vacuum that I use for freeriding or on super cold days). Also you can make any plug pretty soft (take out screws and cut it down) - I guess pretty much to 130 consumer boot flex level should not be a big problem if you really cut down a lot.
 

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Review of tweener GS skis would be nice too (though now I already decided on one). They are also a great way to save money it seems. Much cheaper than Masters GS but according to some higher quality/more performance.

Beer League Skis..there you go. Welcome to the site, glad you finally made it.
 

TheMarshal

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This is a great review of the ski's, thank you so much!

Currently I am orienting to buy new non-FIS slalom ski's as reviewed in this topic. After reading many reviews and testing some (Atomic Doubledeck, Elan, Head i.SL), I am still not sure about what to choose.

Currently I am skiing a 2012 Atomic D2 SL, which I use for front-side short turn skiing. It's edges are just gone, so time for new ones. Among the tested ski's, the Atomic felt best for me: very lively and reboundy, fast edge change and stable at speed. However, its grip is less than the D2 SL that I am coming from. And exactly that is a thing that I do not like and makes me think about choosing a different brand.

I am in doubt to go with the Atomic Doubledeck and Volkl Speedwall (which I have not been able to ski, to my regret, but receives great reviews). Also the one on this forum here was very helpful, but I still have some questions. To tell whether it might by a ski of my choice I have some questions regarding how they comprehend to each other and I would be thankful if someone could help me answering.
Which one of the two has:

1) Greater length-stiffness/flex? Or put otherwise: which one needs to be skied harder to perform well?
2) Better edge hold/grip.
3) Which one has better stability at higher speeds?
4) Which one would be more suitable skiing end-of-the-day crud?

Furthermore I suppose that that the Atomic Doubledeck has some more rebound, but the Volkl still has plenty. But thats just an assumption.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Philpug

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1) Greater length-stiffness/flex?
2) Better edge hold/grip.
3) Which one has better stability at higher speeds?

Thanks in advance!
Welcome to the site!

1) Not sure what you are asking for here, which is the stiffest? Better Balances Flex?
2) Whichever one has a better tune. .5/3 woudl be my recommendation/
3) Best stability at higher speeds: Read Here.
 

TheMarshal

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Welcome to the site!

1) Not sure what you are asking for here, which is the stiffest? Better Balances Flex?
2) Whichever one has a better tune. .5/3 woudl be my recommendation/
3) Best stability at higher speeds: Read Here.

Thanks for your very quick reaction and for welcoming me! I am impressed by the site and quality of the reviews here!

1) Yes, I mean stiffest. (So not torsional stiffness)
2) Seems as a fair answer. That are the angles that I use on my current sky. Although clearly people experience difference edge hold/grip between different skis, dont you agree? Would there be a noticable difference between the two, is my actual question.
3) Agree, although the main reason for me to ski these non-FIS SL ski's is its radius combined with its grip, which would completely different story on a GS.
 
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ScotsSkier

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This is a great review of the ski's, thank you so much!

Currently I am orienting to buy new non-FIS slalom ski's as reviewed in this topic. After reading many reviews and testing some (Atomic Doubledeck, Elan, Head i.SL), I am still not sure about what to choose.

Currently I am skiing a 2012 Atomic D2 SL, which I use for front-side short turn skiing. It's edges are just gone, so time for new ones. Among the tested ski's, the Atomic felt best for me: very lively and reboundy, fast edge change and stable at speed. However, its grip is less than the D2 SL that I am coming from. And exactly that is a thing that I do not like and makes me think about choosing a different brand.

I am in doubt to go with the Atomic Doubledeck and Volkl Speedwall (which I have not been able to ski, to my regret, but receives great reviews). Also the one on this forum here was very helpful, but I still have some questions. To tell whether it might by a ski of my choice I have some questions regarding how they comprehend to each other and I would be thankful if someone could help me answering.
Which one of the two has:

1) Greater length-stiffness/flex? Or put otherwise: which one needs to be skied harder to perform well?
2) Better edge hold/grip.
3) Which one has better stability at higher speeds?
4) Which one would be more suitable skiing end-of-the-day crud?

Furthermore I suppose that that the Atomic Doubledeck has some more rebound, but the Volkl still has plenty. But thats just an assumption.

Thanks in advance!

1 Atomic
2 Atomic
3 Tie
4 Volkl

If icy edge grip is your priority, then I would seriously consider the FIS version of either instead
 

Philpug

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1 Atomic
2 Atomic
3 Tie
4 Volkl

If icy edge grip is your priority, then I would seriously consider the FIS version of either instead

Thanks, no need to post what I was going to post. I will defer to @ScotsSkier :hail:
 

TheMarshal

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1 Atomic
2 Atomic
3 Tie
4 Volkl

If icy edge grip is your priority, then I would seriously consider the FIS version of either instead

Thanks for the advice.

Grip is certainly a priority, since it is an important factor for a short radius carve turn. However, I do not use the ski on race courses, and not intend to do so in the future anymore. Therefore I also have to consider other factors, mainly concerning workability. But as I conclude the Atomic is stiffer, grippier (and more agressive?) than the Volkl, which therefore will make it better working in less-optimal conditions such as crud.

My ski now is 165 cm, as I maybe wanted to use it in a beer league a few years ago. Now, lately a guy told me that since the race-rocker design has entered this class of ski's, I should ski it 170 cm. (I am 1.92m, 6ft, 3" and 82 kg, 182lbs). I was somewhat sceptic about it, but was the guy right you think?
 
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ScotsSkier

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i normally would never suggest using over 165 in a slalom ski but Given what you want to use the ski for and this is not a race ski the 170 will give you a little more stability in crud and a radius in the 13s rather than 12 so certainly an option
 

TheMarshal

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i normally would never suggest using over 165 in a slalom ski but Given what you want to use the ski for and this is not a race ski the 170 will give you a little more stability in crud and a radius in the 13s rather than 12 so certainly an option

Thanks! Maybe it made sense after all. I have bought the 170 Volkl Racetigers. The past days they have received several coats of wax and I am very curious how they will behave. I'll test them in the oncoming week, after which I can maybe add some information regarding how they behave and comprehend to the doubledeck Atomics.
 

TheMarshal

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Okay, for the people who may be in the same decisive split as that I was, here are the differences between the Atomic Doubledeck 3.0 SL and Volkl Racetiger SL's. I have skied the Atomic's in 165cm and the Racetigers in 170. However the differences in behaviour that were due to differences in length, were minor as far as I can judge.

Observations and views
When standing still, feeling and observing the ski's, the Racetigers are a little lighter in weight and longitudinal stiffness is a little stiffer for the Atomics. Interestingly the Volkl has a clean arc when flexed and the marker bindings clearly move with the ski being flexed. The Atomic ski on the other hand has an asymmetrical flex pattern, since the tips of the ski is not doubledeck covered, it bends much easier than the parts that are covered. Also its bindings did not move that much when flexed, suggesting that the part under the foot remains flatter than the rest of the ski, when flexed. Differences in torsional stiffness was too difficult to measure by hand for me. Radius of the Atomic was quite some shorter (11.1m, vs 13.6 of the Volkl), but was wider under the foot (69mm vs 68mm).

An interesting detail in the built of the ski is the locations of the metal. The Atomics have one titanium plate, located between the internal wood and the ski base, like most skis that carry metal. On the other hand, the Volkls are described to have a double-titanium plate, of which one is visibly located on top of the ski and the other one is supposedly located between the wood and the base, thereby sandwhiching the wood core with metal. A downside of this metal top sheet is that when the skis hit each other, your edges have metal-to-metal contact, thereby dulling the edges. Upside is that the ski has a full sidewall, compared to the capped-sidewall hybrid system of the atomic. (Forget about waxing the sidewall, it is not made of p-tex anymore like it was some years ago).

Skiing experience
Skiing wise both skis have a lot in common with each other. Both skis feel very lively, mainly due to the small effort it requires to initiate a turn, and the strong rebound they both give. To summarize: both skis have to be guided and tempered, rather than pushed have put effort into them. The Atomics are known for their immense rebound, which they indeed have more than the Volkl. To my taste, especially when skiing moderately long turns, where G-forces really build up,the rebound can be somewhat overwelming. The Volkls have a similar rebound, to the Atomics, but just slightly turned down. Where the Atomic is put on "volume level 10", the Volkl is between 8 and 9.

Turns are notably shorter skied with the Atomics, which fits with their smaller radius. For both skies, short and moderate turns are very well and confidentely skied.

Stability on speed was better for the Atomic ski, but still speeds up to 90 km/h can confidently be achieved with both. After that the Volkl is more prone to generate a more unstable feeling which I cannot accurately describe. This matches the observation that the Atomic felt somewhat stiffer.

Another thing that I experienced immediately on the Atomics is that a really small knee or ankle movements initiate a turn, a little bit more than the Volkls. Contrarily, where the Atomics have easier initation, the Volkls have stronger edge grip, also on ice.

Now a skis that hold really strong grip, may have such great torsional stiffness, that it may be difficult to ski skidded turns. Here was where I found the largest difference between the skis. The Atomic ski is considerably less turn-able when skiing skidded turns, it is more "on rails", but then in a negative way. This is also much more pronounced in the new doubledeck 3.0 skis compared to the older D2 SL from 2012 that I had. This is also where the versatility of the Volkl, described in other reviews comes from, I am convinced. The Volkl has absolutely no problem with ski skidded turns. It turns on a dime, and it does with greatest ease. This makes it better skiable in moguls, crud, and slopes that are too steep to carve comfortably.

Both skis have their outside-visual gimmics ofcourse. For the Atomic, the doubledeck system is clearly visible and has proven its function and is responsible for a great part of its rebiound. I did not notice the RAMP technology that puts the skier forward up to 10 degrees, when the ski is compressed/flexed. This may be a positive thing, since also was not put back on the ski in short turns. Hence, it may have worked without disturbing me.

The UVO damper of the Volkl has been claimed to damp vibrations, although the metal appears to aluminium or magnesium (or some other lightweight alloy), that is not that heavy, which would be needed to effectively cancel out the heavy vibrations of a ski at speed. Therfore I was not yet convinced of the system when I had the skis in my hands. Whether or not the UVO works or not, the ski is remarkedly stable, in all directions.

Summary
The Non-FIS SL's of Atomic and Volkl ski are both very lively feeling skis. Structurally they are quite differently built, with both having their unique properties. The Atomic has easier turn initiation and is more stable at speed and has loads of rebound. The Volkl has somewhat more grip, somewhat less rebound but still has plenty, but is much more versatile since it can do skidded turns and handle crud-condions much easier.
You could say the Volkl has 10% "less" turn initiation and high speed stability, but trades that for 40-50% easier skidded turns and handling crud.
I am happy that I have bought the Volkls and if someone has a question regarding something I have missed in the comparison, I am happy to answer as well. :)
 
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ChrisJ

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Great feedback thanks for sharing that. I bought the Volkls this fall and they have become my go to firm snow/groomer ski. I bought them initially to coach U10 and do masters gate training. Now find myself skiing them every chance I can.
Incredibly responsive, a powerful but approachable slalom ski. A few reviews suggest they are a handful and only for experts, I disagree.
Stability wise good on you for taking an SL ski up to 90 kp/h. Personally with that much shape and energy I save those speeds for a cheater GS or straighter ski. I'd place a lot more value on mixed snow, crud and being able to skid a turn. Fortunately they deliver on all of those trailers.
As for the binding and plate I'd say it's the nicest non FIS setup I've seen/used. Free flexing, top end toe and heel, lighter and a diagonal toe release. The FIS setups are stiff heavy and less safe-no vertical release toe (I've torn a patella tendon in a backwards twisting fall so I'm a bit hung up on this feature). For reference I also have a Head RD SL with RD plate and Ffp 14. Nice setup but pound heavier per ski, less versitile, slight edge on really hard snow, more exhausting to ski all day.
To me the volkl is a 9/10ths setup you can ski for 6/10ths the energy of a FIS slalom.
Ashestically I love the graphics there a throwback. but I grew up skiing in the 80s so volkl p9 SL or Kastle RX SL memories for me. I also own Kastles so it's like yin and yang - loud and obnoxious with calm and sedate.
 

Rigatoni42

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Very nice write up! Thanks. This is exactly the kind of ski I have been thinking about getting to increase the fun factor on the small hills I ski in the midwest. I wonder if anyone here can provide some guidance for me on this class of ski. I am 175lbs, 5'10". I have no race background but I do love to carve aggressively. My current daily ski is the Volkl RTM 81, 177cm (previously Volkl RTM 80, 171cm). I love this ski, but I would really like to have something with a shorter radius and quicker edge to edge for these short hills. I also have a 4FRNT Cody, 186cm for snow days and when I co out west. From your descriptions above I would really like to try the Head WC iSL. I am unlikely to be able to demo skis like this. What length should I shoot for? I was thinking 165cm may be good for me, but that size is hard to come by this time of year (often sold out). Would 160 or 155 be too short?

Thanks, Jim.
 

James

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Men's Fis sl in 165cm will be sold out likely now. Choice is used or go to 158cm womens. The 155's are for the big juniors. 158 would be pretty nice in the midwest.
But since this thread is non fis slaloms, go 170cm for a great all around midwest ski.
 

Dwight

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Very nice write up! Thanks. This is exactly the kind of ski I have been thinking about getting to increase the fun factor on the small hills I ski in the midwest. I wonder if anyone here can provide some guidance for me on this class of ski. I am 175lbs, 5'10". I have no race background but I do love to carve aggressively. My current daily ski is the Volkl RTM 81, 177cm (previously Volkl RTM 80, 171cm). I love this ski, but I would really like to have something with a shorter radius and quicker edge to edge for these short hills. I also have a 4FRNT Cody, 186cm for snow days and when I co out west. From your descriptions above I would really like to try the Head WC iSL. I am unlikely to be able to demo skis like this. What length should I shoot for? I was thinking 165cm may be good for me, but that size is hard to come by this time of year (often sold out). Would 160 or 155 be too short?

Thanks, Jim.

Where in the Midwest?

I use a pair for Rosi E83 at 168cm for my carvers. I weight 210lbs and 6', blue eyes.. Wait wrong site. ;)

I also have a pair of Elan SLX 165, 65 underfoot that are really fun too. The Rosi's almost carve as tight and I'm learning to have quite a lot of fun with them. Maybe E73, would be easier to find.
 
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ScotsSkier

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Men's Fis sl in 165cm will be sold out likely now. Choice is used or go to 158cm womens. The 155's are for the big juniors. 158 would be pretty nice in the midwest.
But since this thread is non fis slaloms, go 170cm for a great all around midwest ski.

Yes, worth looking for a used 165 fis slalom . The 158 could also probably work For you given what you are looking for. Personally I would stay away from the 170 though. To me the character starts to change over 165. While it becomes more of an all around ski, that is not why you are considering a slalom - or slalomlite - ski in the first place. Kinda like wanting a sports car for performance but the buying an SUV because it can carry more people....
 

Wart1

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Short version. I'm considering the Head Worldcup Rebels i.SL. What length best fits me?
5' 11" 160lbs.

Long version.
My every day skis are currently Head Rally 170cm. But I'm not attached to the Head brand.... it is just luck that I have found my way to Head Worldcup Rebels i.SL.
Oh, I have skied about 200 days on the Raley's... what's the life span of these skis?

I ski in Utah. I don't know what the different levels are, but I can ski anywhere, I just go slower as it gets steeper. And I am a student of the ABC's of skiing - Always Be Carving.
The Rally's are great. The right length. They feel just right... groomers, soft bumps, up to about 4" of new snow.
So, I'm looking for a ski that is ever more of a craver and turner.

Not much chance of demoing any of the skis in this thread in Utah.
However, I did demo the Rossignol Hero Elite ST Ti in a 162cm or 167cm - I don't remember. I like the turns. I like the carve. But there seemed to be too much ski in the tail and not enough ski in the tip. That is, the Rossi seems to have the boot mounted more forward on the ski than typical.(?)

I have also demo two different models of the Fischer Carve ski. They seemed very stiff... too stiff for me.

So, my long version questions are... will the Head Head Worldcup Rebels i.SL be too stiff? What length best fits me? Is the 2016-17 version the same as the 2015-16 version? Any other words of wisdom for me?

Thanks!
 

Philpug

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@Wart1, other than some of the real small guys, who ski Masters, you will ski the i.SL in a 165cm. If your mantra is the ABC's and you have 200 days on the Rally, you will be fine on the Rebels. Will you have to pay attention? Oh yeah but it will be worth it.
 

Wart1

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@Philpug - So, I talked with a Head rep and I'm now leaning away from the Worldcup Rebels and towards the Super Shape i.Speed. Lighter and more flexible - seems like they will be less work/fatigue. Agree or disagree?
Also, which size 163 or 170?

Oh, and I did get to demo a pair of Stockli CX 170. These seemed to be what I'm looking for - quick, snappy turns and I could bend the skis easily... but the price... so the Head Super Shape i.Speed I can probably afford.
 
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