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James

Out There
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thumb? Not at all, if anything, it holds the pole in the absolute perfect position for Skiers thumb (UCL tear) to occur during an outstretched arm, open hand fall. Discussed this with my OS hand doc.

And what of this style grip?-
IMG_2254.PNG

Do you ski without straps now?

Here's to you not having to talk to a surgeon in the Year of the Dog, 2018!
 

Ron

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Hmmm... well, not being an engineer or OS, this design certainly seems to hold the pole in the crease of the hand. without getting too deep, you blow the UCL out when the thumb moves backwards abruptly with force. so really you dont want anything in the palm of your hand if you fall with an outstretched open hand although you can still pop it with your hand gripped on the handle and you jam the the top joint of the thumb causing the the rest of the finger to move backwards. (thats how I tore mine the last time)


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654954/


"As recreational activities prospered in the Western world, the same injury often occurred acutely in skier’s and was initially attributed to the strap at the pole handle [3, 34], but later studies showed that the incidence of the injury remained the same even when new pole designs without a strap were used [6]. Injury rates in skiers are as high as 2.3–4.4 per 1,000 skiing days [6], making it the second most common skiing injury after injury to the medial collateral ligament of the knee. Injuries to the thumb UCL also occur in rugby and other collision sports that involve twisting injuries to the thumb [34]. This injury has even been reported after a handshake [7].

When an acute excessive valgus stress is applied to the thumb MPJ, three injuries can occur: rupture of the ulnar collateral ligament, avulsion fracture of the ulnar–volar base of the proximal phalanx (displaced or not) or both [10]. There is also a rare variation of this injury where the ulnar collateral ligament remains intact, and there is an avulsion fracture involving the volar plate [25, 29].

The incidence of a Stener lesion associated with rupture of the ulnar collateral ligament has been reported to be as high as 52% based on operative findings [25]. Stener lesions are missed despite the advances in imaging and the high suspicion of clinicians [12, 21]."
 

Josh Matta

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Josh, you may not realize that you sound like you're going on an unwarranted attack when you tell people their skiing sucks when you haven't even seen it, and when they didn't ask for your opinion (your two posts above to Bill Talbot and oldschoolskier).

You are concluding they are guilty until proven innocent when you ask them to prove they are with video. UnAmerican!

You might consider saying that doing those specific things with poles, in your experience, leads to specific problems, without pointing out who you are talking about, without telling them their skiing is suffering, and without asking for video from them to prove it isn't.

In other words, there's a way to share your information and experience while keeping it non-personal. Rule #1.

find me one video of someone skiing with out straps either just straplless or pistol grips and I would bet money they ski exactly like I am saying.
 

Josh Matta

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I wanna pay for a Josh private. I assume the whip and lashings are included?

Seriously though some people like tough straight talk because it sticks. How effect that is would be proven by a video... of a pay stub.



if you were taking a ski lesson. Would rather have
https%3A%2F%2Fs3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com%2Fnine-tvmg-images-prod%2F33%2F99%2F70%2F339970_dr_phil_2_2.jpg


or this
hot-sell-custom-made-sexy-halloween-costume.jpg


I am kidding. IRL I do crack the whip but at least I am nice about it.
 

ScotsSkier

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OP, go for the red ones! :D

And no, I am not being facetious..:) The only poles I use now are the Swix race composite poles, most of mine (and I have several pairs for multiple disciplines) are red! After using them, anything else feels heavy and clumsy. Unlike others here, and a lot of my athletes, I am not a fan of the LEKI system. Tried it, didn't like it and dont want to spend a fortune on gloves or have to have a stupid strap attached to my glove. In my experience the Swix poles have stood up to a lot of abuse and are pretty difficult to break/damage.
 

Doug Briggs

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And what of this style grip?-
View attachment 24633
Do you ski without straps now?

Here's to you not having to talk to a surgeon in the Year of the Dog, 2018!

I'm not sure if you are asking a rhetorical question or not, but I'll answer it anyways. That is what I call the Sabre style grip.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Josh - Tim never uses straps does he exhibit the quirks you are talking about?
 

Philpug

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This is about pole discussion, NOT about MA, the OP asked about poles, no one asked to have hand position or to be analized. It is not about right or wrong...or being proven wrong..it is about preference. Lets leave it at that.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Started at 53

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
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OP, go for the red ones! :D

And no, I am not being facetious..:) The only poles I use now are the Swix race composite poles, most of mine (and I have several pairs for multiple disciplines) are red! After using them, anything else feels heavy and clumsy. Unlike others here, and a lot of my athletes, I am not a fan of the LEKI system. Tried it, didn't like it and dont want to spend a fortune on gloves or have to have a stupid strap attached to my glove. In my experience the Swix poles have stood up to a lot of abuse and are pretty difficult to break/damage.

Thanks!
 

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
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This is about pole discussion, NOT about MA, the OP asked about poles, no one asked to have hand position or to be analized. It is not about right or wrong...or being proven wrong..it is about preference. Lets leave it at that.

Heh. Analized? I want to party with you guys,
 

LiquidFeet

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I like pictures.
"Skier's Thumb," torn ulnar collateral ligament:
MOI.jpg


Game Keeper's Thumb = Skier's Thumb
Evidently in the past game keepers, by repetitively wringing the necks of birds between their thumb and index finger, produced a similar injury.
GameKeeperslabel.jpg
 
Last edited:

James

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Is this thread still about which poles I need to get??? :huh:
Yes. But like most things, the subject is more complex than it first appears. I actually probably agree with what Josh is saying. I know the year or so I spent without pole straps I started to develop odd spurious hand movements. In general I find that the act of gripping a handle often sets up tensions in the body that negatively affect movements in ways that one might not think poles could do. I often have people ski by lightly holding the pole in the middle of the shaft- like carrying a rifle. It really can free things up.

Some people hold an enormous amount of tension in their arms/hands - like people who ski with "dinosaur arms". Think T-Rex.

In terms of strap use, what @Josh Matta is talking about I think is what this Japanese mogul skier is showing here. Hard to do that without tight straps. Swix tab system helps with this.
Go to 24:00:

Maybe @Doug Briggs will post a photo of his classic Kerma poles from the seventies. A great pole which has been improved upon in lightness and grip. I wonder if anyone has ever broken one. It would take a lot. Their simple strap release mechanism has sadly disappeared and why I don't know. On the surface it's by far the best and simplest solution. Whether it actually performed as well in practice I don't know.

I like the Scott aluminum racing poles but they are heavy. Relatively speaking. It's not a bad compromise between heavy duty use and function though. But when I shift to the Swix carbon poles you really notice how light they are.


OP, go for the red ones! :D

And no, I am not being facetious..:) The only poles I use now are the Swix race composite poles, most of mine (and I have several pairs for multiple disciplines) are red! After using them, anything else feels heavy and clumsy. Unlike others here, and a lot of my athletes, I am not a fan of the LEKI system. Tried it, didn't like it and dont want to spend a fortune on gloves or have to have a stupid strap attached to my glove. In my experience the Swix poles have stood up to a lot of abuse and are pretty difficult to break/damage.
Totally agree with Swix poles. I want to take a pair of the Scott racing straps and mount it to my Swix freeride pole. The weakness in the Swix is the adjustment strap.
The Swix solution will certainly not appeal to the "poles should come out of a dumpster" crowd. They are among the most expensive. I think their ad tab system is good too for keeping grip without pressure.
 

oldschoolskier

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Yes. But like most things, the subject is more complex than it first appears. I actually probably agree with what Josh is saying. I know the year or so I spent without pole straps I started to develop odd spurious hand movements. In general I find that the act of gripping a handle often sets up tensions in the body that negatively affect movements in ways that one might not think poles could do. I often have people ski by lightly holding the pole in the middle of the shaft- like carrying a rifle. It really can free things up.

Some people hold an enormous amount of tension in their arms/hands - like people who ski with "dinosaur arms". Think T-Rex.

In terms of strap use, what @Josh Matta is talking about I think is what this Japanese mogul skier is showing here. Hard to do that without tight straps. Swix tab system helps with this.
Go to 24:00:

Maybe @Doug Briggs will post a photo of his classic Kerma poles from the seventies. A great pole which has been improved upon in lightness and grip. I wonder if anyone has ever broken one. It would take a lot. Their simple strap release mechanism has sadly disappeared and why I don't know. On the surface it's by far the best and simplest solution. Whether it actually performed as well in practice I don't know.

I like the Scott aluminum racing poles but they are heavy. Relatively speaking. It's not a bad compromise between heavy duty use and function though. But when I shift to the Swix carbon poles you really notice how light they are.



Totally agree with Swix poles. I want to take a pair of the Scott racing straps and mount it to my Swix freeride pole. The weakness in the Swix is the adjustment strap.
The Swix solution will certainly not appeal to the "poles should come out of a dumpster" crowd. They are among the most expensive. I think their ad tab system is good too for keeping grip without pressure.

I still have my set of Kerma poles from about '82/3. Gold in color and clear grips. Indestructible. Little nicks taken out be ski edges over 30+ years most mine but some by others. Never bent though they've bent my ribs once or twice.
 

raytseng

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I will just throw in a few points

  • There is middle ground, Composite poles (aka "plastic/fiberglass", such as goode) are still relatively cheap, but not full carbon.
    A lot of rental shops use since they won't get bent or break as easily, and less shocky for newer skiers.
  • It is a personal preference, each material has a different feel. Specifically how shock absorbing each type is.

  • As far as skiers Thumb, I suffered a couple minor and moderate incidents of it (doctor and xray but no surgery). My 2cents on this are the exact strap technology is going to have far less of an effect compared to what you trained yourself to do when you fall. Unfortunately this is going to mostly related to how you learned to ski.

    If you learned falling semi-solo and had to collect up your own gear, like I did, then your body and instinct is to clutch your poles during a fall rather than ditching them. I don't think you can easily unlearn whatever technique you have, unless you spend a lot of time pole-less and falling for the fun of it. As another data point, the couple of people I know who crossed over from snowboarding instinctively always ditch the poles because poles feel weird compared to falling on their fists or hands. So that's the other path, go snowboard for a season and practice falling without poles.
 

Eleeski

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San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
And what of this style grip?-
View attachment 24633
Do you ski without straps now?

Here's to you not having to talk to a surgeon in the Year of the Dog, 2018!

I like this sabre style of grip. It might allow too much pole plant authority. My wrists, elbows and shoulders can get really sore when I use my poles. Of course, the nasty arthritis is a factor. I never got sore when I was young and using this grip. And I get sore regardless of what style pole I use.

Regarding pole length, I wanted the sabre grip on Goode poles. I had issues removing the Goode grips and ended up cutting the poles way too short. I now kind of like the short poles in the steeps and bumps as my upper body is a bit more comfortable when my knees are compressed.

I have both carbon and glass Goode poles. As a weight freak, I am conflicted because I can't really feel the difference. The Goode poles feel better than the old aluminum poles just because they aren't bent. So far they are appearing to be more durable. Also slightly less painful if I fall directly on the pole.

@Josh Matta 's style criticism may be quite valid on easy groomers but I don't need poles to get down groomers. When I need poles, the terrain is critical and I just want to be comfortable with the needed pole plant. The comfort allows me to be safe and stylish independent of a prescribed technique. Poles all wrong? I'm still "the best skier on the mountain!"

Eric
 

Philpug

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I still have my set of Kerma poles from about '82/3. Gold in color and clear grips. Indestructible. Little nicks taken out be ski edges over 30+ years most mine but some by others. Never bent though they've bent my ribs once or twice.
I had some of these and passed them along to @Bill Talbot, these are heavy as anything. These along with the orange/white/black ones I got to him. I am still a big fan of the Goode 10.4 poles, I like the light swing weight and they were stiff enough to push off yet absorbant enough to take the jaring out of a hard pole plant in ice.
 

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