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PMTS Two Footed Release

Josh Matta

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I was hoping one of the PMTS guys here could help me out. Should your hips follow your skis in a two footed release? or should they the remain Countered to the skis direction of travel?
 

Living Proof

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Paging @HeluvaSkier to the white courtesey phone.

Here is a link to HH's Youtube video regarding the two footed release. Note: for those not familiar with PMTS, HH has a unique terminolgy, such as "brushed turn". It may be a little difficult to grasp the intent of certain terms.


My personal interpretation is that the hips would face downhill both at the release and then when the skis complete the turn. So, the hips would have to turn counter to the direction of the turning skis for this to occur.

But, I've been known to be wrong.
 
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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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So the hip do not face down hill during the turn?
 
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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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not so sure harb's hips actually do what Paul is talking about.
 
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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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Just so that anyone can watch the PMTS Two footed release here is the video above at the correct time.


@Read Blinn you are not an instructor but do you think Harb's Hips are level and down the hill here? Are they suppose to be?
 

razie

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it's not really about keeping the hips in any one particular position, but about a movement called counteraction and the idea is that the hips move to counteract the rotation of the skis, as otherwise they would simply follow and rotate wih the skis. sometimes it leaves the impression that the hips stay facing down the hill as the skis turn from side to side, but at the slow speeds of a release drill, this is pretty hard to do... the counteracting effort is very visible in the video above.

cheers
 

bud heishman

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The two footed release is one of my favorite tasks! It teaches accuracy of movement for parallel turning. It also emphasizes and differentiates "edge release" from "edge change" as they occur at very different points with this task. It is also a great way to isolate leg turning. Most level two candidates have great difficulty with this task.
 
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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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it's not really about keeping the hips in any one particular position, but about a movement called counteraction and the idea is that the hips move to counteract the rotation of the skis, as otherwise they would simply follow and rotate wih the skis. sometimes it leaves the impression that the hips stay facing down the hill as the skis turn from side to side, but at the slow speeds of a release drill, this is pretty hard to do... the counteracting effort is very visible in the video above.

cheers

It really is not hard to keep you hip facing down the hill even at slow speeds. even if he is counteracting its not enough to keep the hips down the hill, as focusing on say separating the femur at the hip socket would be. The vast majority of PMTS learner are using their spines to angulation and counter instead of their hip socket.

Not in this video, not at all. If I recall correctly, in other videos, yes.

I would love for you to find a video of any PMTS person keeping their hip level and down the hill in a two footed release I personally have yet to see it. Given stance width and inside foot pull back I would go so far to say that quiet hips are actually impossible to achieve with the task as it is laid out. Do not just talk about it I want to see video of the hips being quiet in a two footed release.
 
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Read Blinn

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Hm. Well, not to defend the double H, and as you point out, I'm not an instructor (and the person I mentioned earlier, re: hip discipline, was Paul Lorenz), but here's a video that shows more level and down the hill.


Again, caveats. And I don't recall HH talking about hip discipline in the same way.
 
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Josh Matta

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I said in a two footed release.
 

Tricia

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So the hip do not face down hill during the turn?
FWIW, I am not super familiar with this move, but this is what I see when I ski with people who cotton to pmts, which seems counter intuitive to moving down the fall line.
 

razie

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It really is not hard to keep you hip facing down the hill even at slow speeds. even if he is counteracting its not enough to keep the hips down the hill, as focusing on say separating the femur at the hip socket would be. The vast majority of PMTS learner are using their spines to angulation and counter instead of their hip socket.
Sorry - I was not clear... keeping the hips facing down the hill is not a goal. The goal is counteracting the ski rotation enough, just as needed for the turn.

Some would say that the hips need to rotate less than the skis, but that would also not describe it correctly.

Using the hips on the other hand is a goal, one that's not easy to reach - we all tend to access spine movement well before fine hip control.

cheers

:cool:
 
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Living Proof

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It really is not hard to keep you hip facing down the hill even at slow speeds. even if he is counteracting its not enough to keep the hips down the hill, as focusing on say separating the femur at the hip socket would be. The vast majority of PMTS learner are using their spines to angulation and counter instead of their hip socket.

I would love for you to find a video of any PMTS person keeping their hip level and down the hill in a two footed release I personally have yet to see it. Given stance width and inside foot pull back I would go so far to say that quiet hips are actually impossible to achieve with the task as it is laid out. Do not just talk about it I want to see video of the hips being quiet in a two footed release.

So, Josh, please come out and state the point what you are trying to accomplish in this thread. You chose the title as "PMTS Two Foot Release", a subject mostly unknown in the Pugski (and general ski ) community, yet, your subsequent discussions are focused on hip positions. Harb has written extensively about turning the hips and upper body counter to the direction of the turn, his term for these movements is "Counteracting". There are video's on Youtube where this specific movement is explained and demonstrated. My experience with counteracting is that it is difficult to build into my skiing, HeluvaSkier did some video of me last year...then told me I was using about 5% of what I needed. I would agree with your thoughts about separating the femur at the hip socket, and, not relying on simply facing downhill with the upper body via having the shoulders only turn downhill. I will say that Harb has written much about keeping hips level, it does get lost in extensive details of how to do PMTS skiing. Don't look for any but the highest level of PMTS skiers to demonstrate proficiency in the complete PMTS turn.

I want to modify some of what I said above about hips facing downhill. I think it is more accurate to state Harb teaches to turn the hips so they face the weighted ski, the amount of counteracting achieved varies greatly among his proponents.

But, since you asked for a video about a PMTS student demonstrating level hips and good counteracting, here is a HeluvaSkier demonstration from last year.

 
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