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No Poles - An Unexpected Path to Improvement

cantunamunch

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It has at least somewhat to do with messed up right ankle. Dislocated it in HS (think about that for a moment, its a rare injury). When it healed I ended up with a significantly outward angled joint AND significant pronation.

Oof. Do you find narrower skis harder to finesse than wider ones?
 

Mendieta

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Not sure of the question so I'll just thought-dump on you, sorry.

When and where I learned herringboning was so commonplace that I now regard it as just natural - and I see people having issues with that too. Personally, I think herringboning is much closer to skating on alpine gear than ice skating is, there are too many things/phases/components omitted or elided.

Now looking at the herringbone, it simply requires one to get and keep weight forward of the heel (weighted tails are a recipe for trouble) so I wonder if that's part of it.

Sorry, I had an incomplete sentence. My point was that most people don't skate well. Very, very few do. So, I'm not surprised when someone doesn't ski well, I am surprised when they do :) Good point about herringboning.
 

skibob

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Oof. Do you find narrower skis harder to finesse than wider ones?
Actually, the opposite. Boots can adapt to the angle of lower leg (right leg). One reason I am a fan of heat molded boots because you can set the angle of the boot. Most manual cuff alignment allows 1.5 degrees. I need about 1.8 degrees. I can support the arch of that foot with custom footbeds to limit pronation. But I still get some rubbing of the inner ankle bone on that side which can be quite painful and soreness in the arch from being supported against the roll. If I get my boots good and tight, that helps limit the ankle roll too. But, given my absurdly low volume instep, it wants to rotate forward if the ankle is good and tight.

Anyway, with proper boot setup, I can run fairly flat (although running flat and straight with speed, I get a little directional wobble in the right ski). The narrower the skis, the flatter. But when I turn left, and pressure the inner edge of my right ski, the ankle wants to roll in the boot. The wider base of a wider ski applies more force here and can result in lateral instability and pain.

It actually makes that right ski MORE effective at initiating and shaping the right hand turn though, because I need very little input to engage the outer edge of the right ski when initiating a right turn. If I overthink it, sometimes I realize I have a slightly different technique for right vs left turns. If I don't think about it though, it just happens.
 

Josh Matta

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:( thats guys demos are awful. probably because at no point in time are we ever trying to really focus on our hands pushing together. I have to laugh how he talks about how its a good way to make your upper body remain calm and then he proceeds to start every turn with an upper body rotation, and a rotary push off up the hill with no release going down the hill.
 

Kneale Brownson

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Has anyone here found poles to be a psychological block to *vertical* motion, esp. absorption, amongst L7+ students who have a pole plant?

I teach a lot of L7 students. I often suggest they stop using a pole touch because they have a whole system of inefficient muscle memory that gets triggered by the pole touch and that prevents them from changing what they're doing with their feet.
 

Fuller

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:( thats guys demos are awful. probably because at no point in time are we ever trying to really focus on our hands pushing together. I have to laugh how he talks about how its a good way to make your upper body remain calm and then he proceeds to start every turn with an upper body rotation, and a rotary push off up the hill with no release going down the hill.

Well he may not meet your exacting requirements but give the man credit for being one of the go-to resources for beginning and intermediate skiers:

The camera work and video resolution are top notch.
He speaks with correct grammar, in complete sentences and explains what he's doing.
His on camera presentation is quite professional compared to most of what's out there.
The series is a logical build up of skills.
It's free.

Frankly, I didn't notice the deficiencies you pointed out but I have done the drills. I don't think it made my skiing worse.
 

Josh Matta

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I will say this poles are basically useless until your feet and legs are doing the right things, and your core is able to resist the movements being created.
 

ADKmel

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I will say this poles are basically useless until your feet and legs are doing the right things, and your core is able to resist the movements being created.

Totally agree!! YES Take them away and then you will see/feel what's really going on.
 

LiquidFeet

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Not sure of the question so I'll just thought-dump on you, sorry.
When and where I learned herringboning was so commonplace that I now regard it as just natural - and I see people having issues with that too. Personally, I think herringboning is much closer to skating on alpine gear than ice skating is, there are too many things/phases/components omitted or elided.
Now looking at the herringbone, it simply requires one to get and keep weight forward of the heel (weighted tails are a recipe for trouble) so I wonder if that's part of it.

I teach skating every time I take an intermediate onto our teaching terrain. One piece of that terrain encourages skating. There's a long narrow uphill trail they have to get themselves up after the first lift. It's perfect for learning skating, since they are motivated to get through the crowd and up that hill as fast as possible. It gets very boring herringboning up it. And it feels good to be one of the people moving fast through the crowd.

Skating is difficult for people who have not yet mastered it, because it requires a "hidden" skill that's unfamiliar and not used elsewhere in life. It requires them to watch what several different body parts are doing simultaneously. These adult students are not used to monitoring three different body parts simultaneously. That's asking a lot.

--First, they need to feel if they are edging their "propelling ski" sufficiently to get any forward movement going. They can tell if the edging is sufficient if they can feel the ski gripping the snow without sliding across it. Loose-fitting boots are often an issue. Unfamiliarity with strongly edging the ski is also an issue.

--Second, they need to extend that propelling leg diagonally backwards behind them, so that foot moves back behind their hip. Many plop that ski down and press it directly down into the snow, hoping they will travel forward. Or they plop that foot down in a wide stance and press it outwards, sideways, away from their hip. Neither of these is going to propel them forward effectively. When they use some "oomph" to thrust that propelling foot backwards, and when the ski is edged enough to grip the snow, the shin will press hard into the boot cuff. Many are very shy about doing this; the boot cuff functions as an unmovable wall repelling their shins. This shy relationship with the boot cuff must be overcome for skating to start working. Some have a range-of-motion issue with their hip extensors; they can't get that femur to go backwards enough; it hurts in the glute area. Stretch work in the gym may be needed.

--Third, they need to tilt their torso forward (not stand tall, with upward torso). They need to "will" their tilted torso to glide forward in response to the leg lengthening and pushing back against an edged ski. They need to "will" their tilted torso to balance on the "glide" ski and slide forward. Some are shy about leaning forward... maybe they are afraid of falling on their faces.

That's three things at once. Most people can focus on one new thing at once. So usually we work on edging after getting up the lift the first time, on propelling with that backwards leg extension after the second lift ride, and on the torso tilt third. Once they get this whole gliding-forward thing going, they can strengthen it with pumping arms. I don't let them push with poles; they learn to skate fastest t if I take the poles away.
 

cantunamunch

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^You don't mention the other problem - with active pushing the foot has to extend faster than the glide, while at the same time closing the ankle. Otherwise the pushing skis have remarkably braking tips. Which is why, in our inline skating program, we spend maybe a week tops on that motion pattern. They're given the long leg fall-> short leg catch dryland drill, with no push at all, as soon as they can do one-legged push and recovery with no lift ("scooters").
 
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LiquidFeet

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Not sure what you mean when you say "the foot has to extend faster than the glide, while at the same time closing the ankle." Extend the foot and close the ankle at the same time? What means this? Oh wait... if you mean the leg has to lengthen/extend faster than current speed of skier, due to momentum, I get that.

"Otherwise the pushing ski has remarkably braking tips." I'm trying to visualize this. The pushing ski needs to be positioned at a diagonal to the direction of the glide in order to work. But this "braking tips" ..... hmmmm. Say more..... Once my intermediate students finally get that leg going backwards and get that ski edged enough to not let go of the snow, they do often succeed in getting nascent skating happening, with enough repetition. If I look very closely, it's possible they are bending the tip, and I guess it's possible the tip is acting as a braking mechanism, but I can't see this in my mind's eye. Can you say more?

The tilted torso is necessary to get the "oomph" factor going. Which also means they need to get low in order to extend. leg back and torso forward, low to the snow and stretched to the max. These are often timid skiers. Skating goes very well if they get aggressive and athletic about it. But on their day-one-with-actual-skating experience while on that narrow trail they don't always get aggressive. Sometimes they are paddling ineffectively with a stance that stays too-wide, with some intermittent success getting a grip and a glide. But some "get" it better than that and I can have them skate downhill a ways. That's always an eye-opener for them. If this does not frighten them, gravity helps and they can maximize what they are already doing.

Most of these intermediates have the potential to refine and improve what they are doing with repetition and motivation if they stay on that terrain after the lesson. The terrain forces them to keep at it. I'm talking about 1 hour lessons, whose focus is not skating, by the way.

I've never had someone take a lesson to learn how to skate on skis. Now that would be fun to teach.

I've had a few lessons with youngsters who caught on right away and took off skating downhill, wheeeee!! The most rewarding was a tiny five-year old who could carve at the start of the lesson, but who had not ever skated. She loved the speed of skating downhill. I didn't have time to get her to move into skate-to-shape, but would have probably had success with that if the lesson had been for 2 hours instead of 1. Then we would have taken it to the gates. Olympian in training.
 
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BluewingDavid

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Interesting that the coach of the program didn't know why his groups always seem to ski better when he allows them to ski without poles, when you stated the reason in your sensations. 1) the way you were being asked to hold/swing the pole was foreign - that will throw off anyone's skiing. 2) you kept your hands out in front and stopped dropping your uphill hand. Those a great sensations to key on when trying to return to skiing with poles in each hand.
I frequently ski without poles, as a drill, for those exact reasons.
Obviously I haven't seen you ski so can not make any specific comments on that, but in general I find most people are skiing with a pole that is too long. The results can vary, but frequently a too long pole may force and up and over transition. Not ideal on groomed terrain, potentially disastrous in the bumps and un-groomed. As well, a too long pole won't allow for a swing that draws one into the turn. Just some thoughts.

That is an interesting point. I actually have 2 sets of poles - one set I used to ski with until I was told they are too short (I can't remember by whom but it seemed to be someone I thought was knowledgeable) and the set I currently ski with. I am sure I looked up the "rules" at some point regarding ski pole length, but can't remember. I purchased my current poles based on input from a shop where I bought them. I should actually break out the shorter poles and see if I ski better with them. Heading out for a weekend of bump skiing this weekend so a good test.
 
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BluewingDavid

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No dig at you, I'm always puzzled when people can't skate well; it's never been something I've had to really work on (within an alpine skiing context that is).

If you want to get good at skating - ski at Bear Creek Mountain Resort in Macungie, PA which is my home resort. The top of the mountain is pretty much flat and it is a long way to get from the one side of the mountain to the other and in less than ideal snow conditions skating is often required. To get to the run "Timberline" it is uphill - always. To get to the run "Bear Trap" it is uphill - always. By mid-season it is a short uphill to "Extreme" and "Sasquatch". Ski there enough and you will skate like a champ! :)
 

cantunamunch

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Not sure what you mean when you say "the foot has to extend faster than the glide, while at the same time closing the ankle." Extend the foot and close the ankle at the same time? What means this? If you mean the leg has to lengthen/extend faster than current speed of skier, due to momentum, I get that.

If you change that to 'due to the fact that the push is along a diagonal to the line of travel' then we're on the same page.

"Otherwise the pushing ski has remarkably braking tips." I'm trying to visualize this. The pushing ski needs to be positioned at a diagonal to the direction of the glide in order to work. But this "braking tips" ..... hmmmm. Say more.....

It's really really hard to extend the pushing leg without abducting the toes further than your original set down. Yet the tips of the skis are traveling at exactly the same speed as the under-foot section. i.e. they're not traveling fast enough to trace the extra distance of the arc as the toe abducts. Therefore the tips of the skis are braking the skier.

In order to stop that abduction from happening, one has to focus on keeping the ankle closed as the leg extends. XC skiers talk about "keeping the heel on the ski until the leg is fully extended" but it's the same motion pattern.

I'm talking about 1 hour lessons, whose focus is not skating, by the way.

Sure, I'm well aware. Just pointing out a problem.

I've never had someone take a lesson to learn how to skate on skis. Now that would be fun to teach! .

You're thinking of getting a nordic cert, yes?

If you want to get good at skating -:)

:D :D If anything I have the opposite problem. Sounds fun tho.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....
It's really really hard to extend the pushing leg without abducting the toes further than your original set down. Yet the tips of the skis are traveling at exactly the same speed as the under-foot section. i.e. they're not traveling fast enough to trace the extra distance of the arc as the toe abducts. Therefore the tips of the skis are braking the skier.

In order to stop that abduction from happening, one has to focus on keeping the ankle closed as the leg extends. XC skiers talk about "keeping the heel on the ski until the leg is fully extended" but it's the same motion pattern.

Yeah, I like to think of pointing the heel backwards, closing the ankle hard, and using it as the focal point of my propelling. That's TMI for some of the students I get. Thanks for the nordic reference. Very helpful.
 

James

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Have people put down the little toe edge when landing the ski in air. Advanced only. They'll close the ankle.

Push and glide. Most want to skip the gliding part.
 

Dwight

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My family has always hockey or figured skated our whole life so skating on skis was natural.

A family joined us skiing this year and the mother couldn't skate ski. Asked if she could ice skate, she said yes but this motion was different.
Quick ah-ha moment, I asked if she figured skated. She said yes. I asked, I bet you use your toe picks. Yep, I shake head, "You really don't know how to skate then." :)

I kept skating and she tried to keep skating with picking her skis up and down and going nowhere. Good thing we all like to laugh. :)
 

LiquidFeet

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Have people put down the little toe edge when landing the ski in air. Advanced only. They'll close the ankle.

Push and glide. Most want to skip the gliding part.

That's the LIII skate description for the PSIA skiing certification exam. I don't get clients capable of coming close to that; my line-up boss gives those to the LIIIs at my ski school.
 

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