No Poles - An Unexpected Path to Improvement

[BluewingDavid]

I participated in the Bumps for Boomers mogul skiing clinic in Aspen in mid-January. Great 4-day course. Even though I was well-prepared by studying the B for B information on the techniques they teach and I practiced these as best as I could understand them 6 times on the slopes before going to Aspen, it was a lot of information to absorb during the course. I come from a non-technical background having gotten into skiing 6 years ago at 45 years old. When I first started skiing, I did not use poles to remove one more variable from the learning process. That was helpful. I gradually introduced pole use until I was comfortable holding and using poles. In Aspen during the course, I suddenly found that poles felt a bit foreign again, especially given that I was being instructed to ski with a different arm, hand and pole position than I was used to. There was nothing wrong or radical about the B for B instruction, it was just different than what was burned into my neural pathways. Instead of feeling comfortable with poles, they were now an obstacle to learning.

After lunch on the last day of the course the coach for my group declared "No poles for the next few mogul runs". We could do whatever we wanted with them, just not hold them in each hand in the normal way. I clipped my poles together at the baskets and held both of them in my left hand with the handles facing forward. All 5 people, including me, in the group skied better without poles through the next mogul runs. For me, and I was not the only one who experienced this, doing this resulted in me keeping my hands out front and stopped me from dropping my uphill arm behind me. The timing of the "zero momentum" turn that B for B teaches was much easier for me and others with poles out of the equation. The coach said he is not quite sure why, but this experience is common amongst many of the people who teaches.

For the past month after returning home I have continued to ski with my poles clipped together and held in my left hand. I continue to ski much better this way. I am not quite sure why, but I cannot argue with the results. I will eventually try to work on getting comfortable again holding and using poles in each hand, but for now this "poleless" skiing exercise has helped me make great progress in refining my technique.

 

[Mendieta]

I participated in the Bumps for Boomers mogul skiing clinic in Aspen in mid-January. Great 4-day course. Even though I was well-prepared by studying the B for B information on the techniques they teach and I practiced these as best as I could understand them 6 times on the slopes before going to Aspen, it was a lot of information to absorb during the course. I come from a non-technical background having gotten into skiing 6 years ago at 45 years old. When I first started skiing, I did not use poles to remove one more variable from the learning process. That was helpful. I gradually introduced pole use until I was comfortable holding and using poles. In Aspen during the course, I suddenly found that poles felt a bit foreign again, especially given that I was being instructed to ski with a different arm, hand and pole position than I was used to. There was nothing wrong or radical about the B for B instruction, it was just different than what was burned into my neural pathways. Instead of feeling comfortable with poles, they were now an obstacle to learning.

After lunch on the last day of the course the coach for my group declared "No poles for the next few mogul runs". We could do whatever we wanted with them, just not hold them in each hand in the normal way. I clipped my poles together at the baskets and held both of them in my left hand with the handles facing forward. All 5 people, including me, in the group skied better without poles through the next mogul runs. For me, and I was not the only one who experienced this, doing this resulted in me keeping my hands out front and stopped me from dropping my uphill arm behind me. The timing of the "zero momentum" turn that B for B teaches was much easier for me and others with poles out of the equation. The coach said he is not quite sure why, but this experience is common amongst many of the people who teaches.

For the past month after returning home I have continued to ski with my poles clipped together and held in my left hand. I continue to ski much better this way. I am not quite sure why, but I cannot argue with the results. I will eventually try to work on getting comfortable again holding and using poles in each hand, but for now this "poleless" skiing exercise has helped me make great progress in refining my technique.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!. Minor question: doesn't the asymmetry bother you a bit? Some of our instructors here recommend holding the pole at the middle point, one in each hand. I sometimes do a couple drills where you effectively nullify the poles: one where you try to do railed turns with the poles in front of you. You snap them together and hold them horizontal to the floor and in front of you. In the other one, you hold them from the center, on each side, and you have them join in front of you, as a triangle, always pointing downhill. The latter is good for separation (torso downhill and legs turning).

This can be a nice thread to share video with this sort of drill. I will try to remember to share some tonight.

@Philpug @Tricia , sorry for the duplicates, not sure what happened. Can you please remove them? Many thanks!

 

[Dwight]

@Mendieta You can delete your own posts too. I think 2 hr limit.

Edit: Ok, I"m wrong, thought you could.

 

[BluewingDavid]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!. Minor question: doesn't the asymmetry bother you a bit? Some of our instructors here recommend holding the pole at the middle point, one in each hand.

Interestingly, the asymmetry doesn't bother me at all. It feels quite natural to hold both poles in my left hand. I tried one pole in each hand in the middle as you suggest when I started doing this and that felt strange. Holding both in my right hand does not feel right either.

 

[Nate Gardner]

Interesting that the coach of the program didn't know why his groups always seem to ski better when he allows them to ski without poles, when you stated the reason in your sensations. 1) the way you were being asked to hold/swing the pole was foreign - that will throw off anyone's skiing. 2) you kept your hands out in front and stopped dropping your uphill hand. Those a great sensations to key on when trying to return to skiing with poles in each hand.
I frequently ski without poles, as a drill, for those exact reasons.
Obviously I haven't seen you ski so can not make any specific comments on that, but in general I find most people are skiing with a pole that is too long. The results can vary, but frequently a too long pole may force and up and over transition. Not ideal on groomed terrain, potentially disastrous in the bumps and un-groomed. As well, a too long pole won't allow for a swing that draws one into the turn. Just some thoughts.

 

[James]

but in general I find most people are skiing with a pole that is too long.

Yeah I'd agree, esp these days. That's adults. Kids...oy vey! I've had kids whose poles were nearly a foot too long, but six inches is quite common. The resistance to pole length changing is unreal. Even with people who are renting on the mt and can just go in and swap.

Apparently Moses received instruction on pole length from God and it was promply transferred to a stone tablet and the rule can not be violated. People ask for opinion on ski length, but pole length they know from Moses.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I just wanted to add that as an intermediate I found skiing without my poles to be an unexpected but fantastic opportunity for growth. I was taking a private lesson in Quebec last season when my instructor took my poles away. Apparently I was in the back seat and she wanted me to work on stuff. Although I wasn't yet pole planting my poles had become a security blanket for me and skiing without them was utterly terrifying. By the end of the private I was all poles, what poles. It was a bit of a game changer for me. I ditch the poles now and again but when I do ski with poles I often use them as tools when doing various drills. Starting to pole plant a bit as well.

 

[Crank]

I just wanted to add that as an intermediate I found skiing without my poles to be an unexpected but fantastic opportunity for growth. I was taking a private lesson in Quebec last season when my instructor took my poles away. Apparently I was in the back seat and she wanted me to work on stuff. Although I wasn't yet pole planting my poles had become a security blanket for me and skiing without them was utterly terrifying. By the end of the private I was all poles, what poles. It was a bit of a game changer for me. I ditch the poles now and again but when I do ski with poles I often use them as tools when doing various drills. Starting to pole plant a bit as well.

I was skiing with a lower intermediate friend a few years ago and he was having some trouble turning and I noticed he was just holding his poles and was sitting back. I asked him if he had learned to use his poles. he said yes. I told him that he was just holding them and not reaching forward to plant them. Once he realized that his problem was fixed and his weight was where it needed to be.

I used to ski a shorter pole and recently have been going longer and standing taller. It's a matter of style; but that's a subject for a different thread.

Seriously, it's all a matter of balance poles or no poles and whatever gets you there is the right approach.

 

[ADKmel]

I love to ski with no poles.. when shaped skis came out I skied without poles for about 20yrs then 5yrs ago I got back into teaching and now do use them and yes it's easier in bumps and trees but I still ditch them on groomer/zoomer days. I think I make better complete turns with out them, to me they can interrupt the turn. I like to show up at PSIA CE classes w/no poles some clinicians have taken the whole class's poles away (many did not like this) others wouldn't give them up at all! Yes, they can be a security item for many and one of the best reasons to try skiing without them.

When I teach, I always take them away. Skiing No poles helps with balance, is less for beginners to think about, can be down right dangerous to give to young students who just may hit you by accident. It's easier to work on COM and getting skiers to parallel faster with any skier IMHO. My goal is always to get folks out of the wedge ASAP.

In lessons, if you don't know what you're doing "With" poles you certainly can't be demoing or showing others good form or how to use them properly. Yes, @Nate Gardner I agree, I do find many have poles that are not the correct length and makes them over or under reach when trying to figure out a pole plant. I now have adjustable poles so in powder I can extend them and shorten when needed.

If you can ski well with no poles you are going to be much better off with them BUT.. Learning to properly "flick" your pole /use your pole properly is it's own lessons some have no idea what they are doing w/them. watching people ski some seem to carry them around or worse.. drag them my biggest pet peeve..

 

[cantunamunch]

Has anyone here found poles to be a psychological block to *vertical* motion, esp. absorption, amongst L7+ students who have a pole plant?

 

[ADKmel]

Has anyone here found poles to be a psychological block to *vertical* motion, esp. absorption, amongst L7+ students who have a pole plant?

Most definitely! I think they can cause skiers to over rotate and create bad habits if they aren't used properly ...

 

[skibob]

Yeah I'd agree, esp these days. That's adults. Kids...oy vey! I've had kids whose poles were nearly a foot too long, but six inches is quite common. The resistance to pole length changing is unreal. Even with people who are renting on the mt and can just go in and swap.

Apparently Moses received instruction on pole length from God and it was promply transferred to a stone tablet and the rule can not be violated. People ask for opinion on ski length, but pole length they know from Moses.

When I first started skiing again, I looked at charts on the internet to choose poles for my height. I instinctively knew they were too long (when I skied with them). I am certain I never learned about pole length before that, so it was just something in the feel. My current poles are about 4" shorter and feel just right.

I like skiing w/o poles when I've done it. But I don't skate well, so flats w/o poles is like being a snowboarder w/o comfy boots

 

[cantunamunch]

But I don't skate well, so flats w/o poles is like being a snowboarder w/o comfy boots

No dig at you, I'm always puzzled when people can't skate well; it's never been something I've had to really work on (within an alpine skiing context that is).

 

[1chris5]

Interesting that the coach of the program didn't know why his groups always seem to ski better when he allows them to ski without poles, when you stated the reason in your sensations. 1) the way you were being asked to hold/swing the pole was foreign - that will throw off anyone's skiing. 2) you kept your hands out in front and stopped dropping your uphill hand. Those a great sensations to key on when trying to return to skiing with poles in each hand.
I frequently ski without poles, as a drill, for those exact reasons.
Obviously I haven't seen you ski so can not make any specific comments on that, but in general I find most people are skiing with a pole that is too long. The results can vary, but frequently a too long pole may force and up and over transition. Not ideal on groomed terrain, potentially disastrous in the bumps and un-groomed. As well, a too long pole won't allow for a swing that draws one into the turn. Just some thoughts.

That's a great point for me personally. I have been noticing that my poles sometimes can get in the way, and I have wondered if they are a couple centimeters too long. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[Mendieta]

No dig at you, I'm always puzzled when people can't skate well; it's never been something I've had to really work on (within an alpine skiing context that is).

But don't you observe in the mountain? I think most people (including me) don't. I do practice it, and making some progress. I am sure it's way more natural if you are coming from an ice-skating background. And experts, instructors, racers, they obviously all do. But those are a tiny minority of the people out there, particularly on weekends.

 

[newboots]

But don't you observe in the mountain? I think most people (including me) don't. I do practice it, and making some progress. I am sure it's way more natural if you are coming from an ice-skating background. And experts, instructors, racers, they obviously all do. But those are a tiny minority of the people out there, particularly on weekends.

I'm not sure my ice-skating background helps. Those long tails behind me really ruin the ice-skating vibe!

I keep practicing, especially gliding between each step, and I see progress.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I used to ice skate when I was a yoot (my cousin vinny movie) and skied on snow blades from 2008 until about 2013 so I think that helps skating on skis quite a bit. However, it absolutely takes practice.

 

[skibob]

No dig at you, I'm always puzzled when people can't skate well; it's never been something I've had to really work on (within an alpine skiing context that is).

FWIW, I can't skate well on ice skates, inlines, or old-fashioned roller skates either. It has at least somewhat to do with messed up right ankle. Dislocated it in HS (think about that for a moment, its a rare injury). When it healed I ended up with a significantly outward angled joint AND significant pronation. I can correct this (ok, well, close) with ski boots. But it still doesn't translate to skating. Maybe because I never really learned it with skates.

 

[cantunamunch]

But don't you observe in the mountain? I think most people (including me) don't. I do practice it, and making some progress. I

Not sure of the question so I'll just thought-dump on you, sorry.

When and where I learned herringboning was so commonplace that I now regard it as just natural - and I see people having issues with that too. Personally, I think herringboning is much closer to skating on alpine gear than ice skating is, there are too many things/phases/components omitted or elided.

Now looking at the herringbone, it simply requires one to get and keep weight forward of the heel (weighted tails are a recipe for trouble) so I wonder if that's part of it.

 

[Nate Gardner]

I love to watch people skate in the flats. I can tell lot about how a person skis based upon how they skate. Is their weight to much aft (tip of the lifted ski higher then the tail) or can they bend the ankle and drive the ski. Do they have the ability to balance on the outside ski or is it more of a step and slap. Is their primary movement a big up or can they stay flexed and drive. A lot can be seen in he skate.