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New USSA course setting regs and ski specs

ScotsSkier

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Ok, who else has looked at the latest USSA course setting and equipment regs?

http://ussa.org/sites/default/files.../documents/2017-2018-Alpine-CourseSetting.pdf

http://ussa.org/sites/default/files...ive/2014-15/documents/2017-2018-Equipment.pdf

WTF????? Looking at the setting specs (U16 and older) we now have a MAXIMUM of 11m for slalom and 27m for GS in place of the previous no. of gates as a % of vertical drop. So regardless of the hill and terrain we now need to adhere to these maxes. So if you have a flat section on the hill, you are now going to have to cover it with turning gates rather than stretching it out....

Wrt the ski regs. After making the 30m radius ski a requirement for USSA U19 males last year, and having previously indicated it would also be 30m fro USSA U19 girls this year, keeping it basically in line with FIS specs, they have now totally reversed themselves and gone to no length requirement and a min 17m radius for USSA U19 men and women.....wtf??? after athletes have invested in new equipment last season?? And completely different from those trying to do FIS events where there is a 30m min requirement. It is almost like there is an attempt to simply turn USSA U19 into a beer league type club event i.e. only for those without the time or money or skills to aim at FIS level. What a sure-fire way to try to kill off even more participation at U19 level and make its a more exclusive club.

I always thought the purpose of USSA was to increase participation.... ????
 
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trailtrimmer

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If they run with the same regs on skis that allows prior seasons equipment for longer, they just made it more affordable to enter the sport. The problem is in the timing of the change, it should be telegraphed earlier so people can make informed purchase decisions.

Is it safe to assume the strong skiers on 30M skis will be faster regardless, or did the course sets change that much too?
 
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ScotsSkier

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If they run with the same regs on skis that allows prior seasons equipment for longer, they just made it more affordable to enter the sport. The problem is in the timing of the change, it should be telegraphed earlier so people can make informed purchase decisions.

Is it safe to assume the strong skiers on 30M skis will be faster regardless, or did the course sets change that much too?

Yes, you can run previous seasons equipment, but, it may be slower for some racers. And it certainly does not make it cheaper for those that were 1st year u19s last year and invested in 30 m skis.

And for the stronger skiers, those who are able to run straighter at the gate, it will be tempting to buy a smaller radius ski, particularly given the new setting Regs. For those aiming at FIS they still typically need to get their USSA points down enough to make the FIS qualifier. So this could involve buying skis for USSA to qualify then the 30m skis for FIS.....

I am already seeing this in some U19 programs where they are trying to up the ante so they only want kids who are aiming at FIS. After all if USSA now becomes a poor relation it doesn't help a coach enhance his/ her reputation by putting effort into that. And so we accelerate U19 s dropping out of the sport. Just MHO...
 

UGASkiDawg

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Yes, you can run previous seasons equipment, but, it may be slower for some racers. And it certainly does not make it cheaper for those that were 1st year u19s last year and invested in 30 m skis.

And for the stronger skiers, those who are able to run straighter at the gate, it will be tempting to buy a smaller radius ski, particularly given the new setting Regs. For those aiming at FIS they still typically need to get their USSA points down enough to make the FIS qualifier. So this could involve buying skis for USSA to qualify then the 30m skis for FIS.....

I am already seeing this in some U19 programs where they are trying to up the ante so they only want kids who are aiming at FIS. After all if USSA now becomes a poor relation it doesn't help a coach enhance his/ her reputation by putting effort into that. And so we accelerate U19 s dropping out of the sport. Just MHO...


100% correct
 

Tricia

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This is going to stink for parents trying to help their kid stay in the game on a limited budget.
:nono:
 

BGreen

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@ScotsSkier Correct me if I'm wrong, but the course setting rules are exactly the same as last year except that they removed U19 (which mirrored FIS) and extended U16 to U19. This makes no sense. USSA has been talking about strengthening U16 and U19 participation to prevent people from jumping to FIS, but these rules both force people to FIS and make them totally unprepared for FIS course sets, which USSA has identified as a problem. I'm confused.
 
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ScotsSkier

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@ScotsSkier Correct me if I'm wrong, but the course setting rules are exactly the same as last year except that they removed U19 (which mirrored FIS) and extended U16 to U19. This makes no sense. USSA has been talking about strengthening U16 and U19 participation to prevent people from jumping to FIS, but these rules both force people to FIS and make them totally unprepared for FIS course sets, which USSA has identified as a problem. I'm confused.

Yes, that is correct. The SR, U21 and U19 which did NOT use max distances but set the gate count as a % of vertical drop has been removed. And for Masters we normally used the U19 course set requirements. Totally agree with the lack of logic her. Like you I am confused!!! I am trying to get some clarification on how we are going to approach this for Masters. We do currently have a Masters specific competition guide so there may be an option to continue to use the FIS setting guidelines. Typically for Masters (at least in Far West) we have set slalom at 11-12 and GS at 27-30
 

Erik Timmerman

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This is going to stink for parents trying to help their kid stay in the game on a limited budget.
:nono:

I don't know about that. I think that this is being done for the parents that are on a limited budget. The OP called it out and made a reference to beer-league type racing. SO which is it? Beer-league or all out arms race. It seems to me that it would be a bad move to have your kid skiing on 17m skis AND 30m skis. I don't think that will happen. Supposedly the impetus of this is that in NY, USSA racing at the U19 level is very healthy but runs in more of a beer-league format and last year all the kids were in violation of the rules. As you probably know NYS has more ski areas than any other state, and has a to of racers. USSA did not want to force them all out of the sport (or out of USSA). I'm not going to feel sorry for any kids that take this as a chance to ski different radius ski on different courses. I don't think they'll be helping themselves by doing that either.
 
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ScotsSkier

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I don't know about that. I think that this is being done for the parents that are on a limited budget. The OP called it out and made a reference to beer-league type racing. SO which is it? Beer-league or all out arms race. It seems to me that it would be a bad move to have your kid skiing on 17m skis AND 30m skis. I don't think that will happen. Supposedly the impetus of this is that in NY, USSA racing at the U19 level is very healthy but runs in more of a beer-league format and last year all the kids were in violation of the rules. As you probably know NYS has more ski areas than any other state, and has a to of racers. USSA did not want to force them all out of the sport (or out of USSA). I'm not going to feel sorry for any kids that take this as a chance to ski different radius ski on different courses. I don't think they'll be helping themselves by doing that either.

Fair points Epic, and I agree that for some it may reduce costs as they will simply stay on the same skis they used as a U16. (OTOH a strong 18y/o running a 27m GS course on a 17m ski introduces another potential risk!)

IMHO, it certainly seems to be more like degradation of USSA U19 to a lower level and creating a distinct fork in the road between FIS and USSA. This has always existed of course but this seems to be accelerating it. But first year U19s still have to qualify for FIS from USSA races. The view among the coaches I have talked with here is that the FIS kids will do the absolute minimum of USSA races they need to do to qualify. Longer term we will need to see how big an impact this has on entries at U19.

We did have some issues in Far West last year with the new regs with some of the faster kids thinking they would not get caught using non-compliant skis. However this was stamped out pretty quickly at the first races at Mammoth with DQs and DNS penalties applied
 

Swede

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Fair points Epic, and I agree that for some it may reduce costs as they will simply stay on the same skis they used as a U16. (OTOH a strong 18y/o running a 27m GS course on a 17m ski introduces another potential risk!)

Out of curiosity, do U16:s really race on 17 m skis over there? Says min radius 17 in the FIS regs, but in reality I haven't seen any kid on 17 m skis since U14. We were adviced to get min 23 m, but preferrably longer. Most 2nd years on 27-30m.
 

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This could turn into a cluster. I hope it will not. Tiger and his team are getting into a pattern of having a hard time saying no, and of not thinking through the consequences of some decisions. Think NASTAR and live timing. Not trying to be too critical, but you need to think all of this stuff all the way through. You can't just say yes. But Tiger has talked about "grass roots" since he started the job. Problem is that we all have different ideas. To him it's a program like Ford Sayre in NH, where his skids skied after school before heading to GMVS. Some little girl named Shiffrin did as well. And a lot of NCAA AA's. It can accomdate some serious talent.

I am hearing that this might help keep a hundred, maybe a couple of hundred kids racing USSA at ages 16+ in New York, who might otherwise have dropped it. The kids in the NYSEF program {Whiteface} are generally FIS track skiers. At this age, the huge majority are on snow full time. This NY group is no doubt passionate and well intended. Got it. I also have no clue about high school racing, NASTAR, etc, in NY. Those are opportunities in many states as well, outside of the USSA. But clearly the goal, here was to try to make it as attractive as possible to stay in the sport.

I'm not sure how they drew their conclusions about why kids give up the sport of ski racing, not skiing, at various ages. The ramp to FIS, and in general things getting :more serious" is most often cited. That's nothing new. My kids skied in a very large junior program. Most kids who were not in a ski academy as J3's had quit. The weekend kids who held on almost all were skiing on high school teams, and wanted the extra training for that arena. And it was a tiny group. Kids also just develop different passions.

The picture painted for me is that while the 17M radius number looks nutty to some of us, but it opens things up to include all of the cheater GS skis. It also incorporates thinking of all sorts of tiny hills, throughout the country. Like 300 ft hills. There is no real FIS skiing on the smallest of those hills. There is some SL. But it's largely a NASTAR and USSA world. In that respect I absolutely understand the thinking that requiring the use of FIS spec skis may not be wise. So do not expect FIS level skiers to show up. That is a loss.

Contrast those small areas with the big ones And consider the programs, academies and junior racing in those locations. The Eastern academies, CO, UT, Jackson, the big CA programs and academies, those in the PNW, and more. Like it or not, with the exception of Buck Hill {which a lot of kids leave for bigger areas}, that universe is what for the most part develops most of the USST and NCAA ranks. And they all have FIS homologated hills. They train and host races on the same hills.

Up until now, you often would have the very best FIS racers showing up at local USSA races, for any number of reasons, all over the country. My daughter and son's NCAA teams would always do it at least a few times a year. 14 year olds skiing with 22 year old 20 point skiers and having fun! There are some traditional holiday and spring races that always fill up. It has always been fun. Hopefully it still will be. Maybe more so in SL.

This change sounds to me like it has the potential to just drive a wedge between USSA and FIS racing in the US. There is no reason at all for a serious FIS skier to race on course sets like the USSA is proposing, while skiing on their normal set ups. NONE. It looks to me like it's going to almost be a different sport.

Today, an entry level FIS racer typically gets a start in a FIS race based on their USSA points. There are some slots that get allocated based on year end championship U16 events. Their FIS start position is based on their FIS points. That is frankly the main, perhaps only, reason to have a USSA profile. And, it could be changed. There are plenty of ways to allocate entries. Including the "descretionary" picks. Pretty easy for any region to figure it out, based on their needs. The problem is that it becomes more subjective. That's not new, either. Been some of that for years. Once you're into the FIS pipeline you develop a FIS point profile. Once you've been at it for a while your FIS and USSA points are pretty much the same. At some point the fun for the big guns of racing in a USSA series will be gone based on these changes, IMO. And that will be a loss.

My hunch is that this needs to have some regional focus. It might make sense for most of New York. Or for a lot of other states. I think it will have a negative effect in Maine, New Hampshire, VT, in the Rockies, the PNW, and in the Far West. Before this was ever contemplated, you had the best and most intense programs increasing focus on less racing, far less USSA racing, more specific training, and programming specifically designed to put kids in the USST system or at the top ranks of college skiing.

Kirk Dwyer, the Exec Director of Ski Club Vail, was Mikaela Shiffrin's coach at Burke Mountain Academy. He very often explains that in her pre-FIS years, and first FIS year, she raced very little compared to the average kid in New England. His theory was why spend 2-3 days travel, incur the expense and take 2-4 runs? What do you gain? Why not stay at home, have more and better training runs {time and video them all}, get some rest and sleep in your own comfy bed. There are more and more people thinking that way for the best. Train to peak in your big events. Train and pace with the best. Pick your race starts wisely.

If that's the case, they why on earth would the best and most talented bother to race in this new wave USSA world of sets and cheater GS skis?

When my son was a J2, he often would train with some NCAA guys, who had been and would go on to the USST. Guys who has points in the teens when points were a lot higher across the board. These guys would take about six really focused training runs, replicating exactly what they would race in. They would never ski in ruts, so they would never train in ruts. This guys showed up at about a half dozen USSA races a year. And that is how my son lowered his points to be able to get in any FIS or NorAm race in the country. Racing in races where they had to petition the USSA to use the calculated penalties rather than the minimum 25. Small fields and hard snow. He might have started in the seed in those races versus in the 60's at that point in a Eastern FIS race.

This change might be good for those who have been dropping out. It may have a marginal effect of holding on to some license fees. It just feels to me like it could, depending on how the races actually are set and run, sort of dumb down the USSA races. And if that happens so that the the best just turn them all off, I think the effect will be a bad one.

My strong guess is that they agreed with the very passionate and persistent NY group, and I'm curious as to whether anybody contemplated the potential downsides? Here's a simple one. I run a USSA GS race in CO. The big guys show up. DU. CU, the PG's from Vail and Aspen. These are serious skiers. They are all skiing on full on WC stock skis. So maybe I set it so that they can actually ski it. Otherwise they are never showing up again. The "groove" or track set by those guys, with those skis and their angles is going to be so totally different than how somebody would ski it on a GS cheater that frankly it could be downright dangerous for the later starters. Just an observation.

I think that this will probably be revisited, to that individual states will have a lot of discretion and leeway in terms of how to deal with it, or I hope so. My kids were serious FIS and NorAm racers and they loved skiing in the same USSA races they had skied in as younger kids. With these rules, I think they would hate it. And perhaps the USSA crowd would hate it as much.

I'll stick away from the cost side. It's a very poor sport to try to be competitive in on a budget. Sad, maybe cruel, but true. The cost of a pair or two of skis disappears fast.
And frankly race skis bought at USSA prices are a deal.

Should be interesting.....
 

BGreen

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This could turn into a cluster. ... Think NASTAR and live timing.

You mean like how they only had a literal handful of dongles for the November races and the only way to get one was to go to the training with cash in hand? It wasn't so much a training as a room full of people trying to figure out the software together. The USSA guy was trained on it the day before.

I'm not sure how they drew their conclusions about why kids give up the sport of ski racing, not skiing, at various ages. The ramp to FIS, and in general things getting :more serious" is most often cited.

Dan Leever got into this a couple years ago. I'll see if I can dig it up.

The picture painted for me is that while the 17M radius number looks nutty to some of us, but it opens things up to include all of the cheater GS skis. It also incorporates thinking of all sorts of tiny hills, throughout the country. Like 300 ft hills.
<snip>
Contrast those small areas with the big ones And consider the programs, academies and junior racing in those locations. The Eastern academies, CO, UT, Jackson, the big CA programs and academies, those in the PNW, and more.

While I don't agree with this direction, it makes sense. USSA can control the Rocky and Western venues with max verticals. For example 150m max vertical.

This change sounds to me like it has the potential to just drive a wedge between USSA and FIS racing in the US. There is no reason at all for a serious FIS skier to race on course sets like the USSA is proposing, while skiing on their normal set ups. NONE. It looks to me like it's going to almost be a different sport.

I think it is actually much worse than that. We need to keep young athletes in the USSA development pipeline as long as possible. With these rules, athletes will have to pick USSA or FIS as U16s, and you can't get the feel for FIS races in USSA races. The end effect is the only reason to ski USSA at all is to develop the points to get into FIS, and then USSA U16 - U21 becomes an older version of YSL. Maybe that's the grand plan here. Keep YSL level athletes in the sport longer by easing course sets and moving everyone else to FIS.

My strong guess is that they agreed with the very passionate and persistent NY group, and I'm curious as to whether anybody contemplated the potential downsides? Here's a simple one. I run a USSA GS race in CO. The big guys show up. DU. CU, the PG's from Vail and Aspen. These are serious skiers. They are all skiing on full on WC stock skis. So maybe I set it so that they can actually ski it. Otherwise they are never showing up again. The "groove" or track set by those guys, with those skis and their angles is going to be so totally different than how somebody would ski it on a GS cheater that frankly it could be downright dangerous for the later starters. Just an observation.

Aside from the GS Spectacular and similar spring fun/points races, this is a mostly hypothetical scenario because with the new rules, the top guys and gals won't show up. In most cases the track would probably be watered if not actually injected. Already they are disinclined to come to spring fun races because there is no incentive to go hard and risk injury, and if they don't go all out there is a risk of USSA throwing out the race for points manipulation. That's not a hypothetical, it happened.

I'll stick away from the cost side. It's a very poor sport to try to be competitive in on a budget. Sad, maybe cruel, but true. The cost of a pair or two of skis disappears fast.
And frankly race skis bought at USSA prices are a deal.

Again, I have to disagree a bit here. The rules force people to have FIS and USSA rules skis, allocate time to train on both, get used to both, learn timing and tactics for both. It almost becomes another discipline -- you have FIS GS and USSA Super Slalom. As for the cost, they're not that cheap and it adds up. In addition to FIS skis, you have to add race and train USSA GS skis. Tuning, travel, race prep costs all go up. Sure, top guys are getting the skis cheap and they can sell them at the end of the season, but to what end? I find this hilarious since the NY area has been making noise about trying to reduce the number of skis people need.
 
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Muleski

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Good thoughts,@BGreen. Great question about college racing. NCAA is FIS. USCSA is USSA. But, there are a ton of top USCSA skiers who race a lot of FIS. The numbers of skiers in the USCSA dwarfs those in the NCAA, BTW.

All of this makes me think this is even more strange. We all develop experiences and opinions based on where we are based, etc.
And I do get why this group in NY feels as they do.

So, in the bulk of my experience, here in New England, most of the better NCAA racers have skied in a few USSA races each season. In the NE states, there's a general feeling that it's the right thing to do. So you'll see UNH skiing in a number in NH, for example. Bates and Colby in Maine and so on. Not a lot. But some. And there are also legends, like the Stowe Sugar SL. Losing the big guns at those races would be too bad.

I had been thinking that nobody skiing a schedule that is almost all FIS, would bother to set up a USSA quiver. Just assumed no. Thinking of NCAA skiers for example. No. Top level U19's and U21's No. Maybe I'm off base on that.

But, if the USSA, and each region sticks with using a USSA point profile as the criteria to get into FIS starts for the younger part of the field, I guess we could see those who are truly in the arms race with four pairs of USSA tech skis, in addition to all of their FIS skis. What a waste. But if it yields results it will happen. Truth.

Then, as a coach how are you going to train? And really work on progressions. Flip back and forth from this new USSA thing to FIS surfaces and sets. Hmm. I have to imagine that the big issue is GS.

And, I assume that as soon as you have a decent FIS profile {which again really vary by region once you drop down in the field, lower and deeper in the East}, you just drop the USSA starts and stick those skis in the closet.

I traded texts with a friend who's a Head dealer. Set up as a race center, and fulfills a lot of rep sales to academy kids. He told me that one of his best "regular" sellers to non race adults is the i.race, the GS cheater. Sells as many as he generally can get. Sells out every year, and does not have to give them away. He joked that once again the USSA will kill him, as a huge number of those skis will now be sold at USSA pricing, even ones that will end up under dad's feet. He's a former FIS level coach and he thinks it's nuts. 17M cheaters are even marginal for NASTAR type stuff.

He thinks the focus should be on getting kids ready to race FIS, as not many exit the U16 ranks ready. And it's no fun. Obviously some programs spend most of the U16 years getting the kids ready to move on and up. Not many.

So, I'm rethinking the equipment issue. Could be even more strange. And the last thing we really need is anything that plays into the hands of those with the biggest war chest.
Though, frankly it's hard to avoid that.

I keep coming back to the fact that there is a lot of ski racing that goes on all over the country, on very different sized hills. The difference is huge. So what is reasonable and even smart for the small hills may not be for the big ones.

Not sure how you handle the equipment, while trying to keep it simple. Would seem like course set parameters cold easily be based on the vertical and length of the hill.

No doubt well intended, but has a lot of people shaking their heads.
 
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