MA: two skiers carving (video)

[TDK]

OP if you still follow this thread ,here is what I think very quickly. I may differ from most of the posters above, but if you remember me from elsewhere you should know that I oftentimes say what I think a little more directly. First of all congratulations for posting a video of your skiing for a MA , you deserve respect for this. About your skiing : your biggest flaw is that you use extension during transition and this slows you down and makes your skiing monotone and unattractive. If I should watch your
skiing for 5 or more minutes I will get dizzy. Your turns are anything else, but dynamic and energetic. Your inside hand always looks for the snow which means that you tend to lean into the turn and you don't have enough separation from the hips .You tend to ski with your feet wider then your hips which prevents you from effectively tipping your skis as the turn progresses (and also when you release and when you try to engage the new edges.)As a matter of fact these are "classic " issues and almost 95% of the skiers on the hill have them so I would understand you if you decide to pay 0 attention to what I said here.

Thanks for your straight forward MA of my skiing in the video. I usually don't extend that much when I ski normally but I thought that it would make it easier for the guy skiing behind if I vaulted over instead of quickly flexing through. I also find it a bit more dynamic to have my CoM go up and down a bit more than what's normal for me. Usually I get the comment that I'm too static. If you compare to the other videos you can see that I'm a lot lower at transition.

I used to ski with a close stance. At some point it got wider and I agree with you that its not for the better. I have the tendency to lean in with too much weight on my inside ski.

 

[Bogatyr]

TDK you understand correctly my points from the previous post. I wasn't aware you were extending and slowing yourself on purpose to give the second skier a chance to synchronize his movements with yours.Overall your skiing is good and with some small, (but important) corrections you can achieve more beautiful skiing.

 

[TDK]

In terms of syncro skiing, I think it was hard for him to follow you for the following reasons, some mentioned by others already:

1. Your turn size was not consistent. It started out fairly long radius and changed later to much smaller sized.
2. At first the follower was trying to follow your track, but about halfway through he switched to trying to syncro the timing behind you (turn at the same time you do rather then following your track). I think this at least partially is due to the changing turn size I just mentioned, but also the following points:
3. You did not have obvious pole work cues for him to follow.
4. Also, since you are using a fairly static long legged stance with an up and over transition, its hard to see your release from behind, in other words, there is no blatant flexion or extension or something the follower can see, follow, get into a consistent rythmn with, etc. You do an up and over transition, but its hard for the follower to see you are doing it until its too late for him to do it together with you because you aren't doing it very actively, you're just kind of gradually tipping from one side to the other. Since you didn't do it with consistent turn size or timing, how could he possibly sync with you, he was floundering around back there trying to figure out the best way to mirror you.

Regarding basic ski technique, I think you should develop a bit more counter. I also think you are banked inside, particularly at the end of the turn, which goes hand in hand with your non-existant counter. That is kind of classic tip and ride stuff, you get on the edge and hang on to it too long, bracing against the ski in edge lock, but then have a very weak, late, slow and hard to follow release. Get balanced over the outside ski and continue to stay balanced OVER it...not AGAINST it..if you know what I mean....through the last part of the turn. Get your hips over your feet in other words, rather then banked up the hill at the end of the turn. Include counter with that.

That will put you in position to make much more effective releases.

Pole work is missing and pole work would also contribute greatly to you developing counter and better angulation at the end of the turn as previously mentioned, as well as prompting you with more assertive releases.

Thank you. Syncro skiing is a big challenge for all participants but this was not really syncro skiing. We never practiced it and I only told him to follow. The slope was not perfect because it had different pitches and we did not ski in a straight line down the hill.

Thanks for the tip on counter and banking. I will keep that in mind next season. I'm also aware of the pole plant issue.

 

[Tricia]

FWIW, I think the title of this thread is deceptive. Its difficult to do MA on skiers who are attempting synchro skiing.

 

[TDK]

TDK you understand correctly my points from the previous post. I wasn't aware you were extending and slowing yourself on purpose to give the second skier a chance to synchronize his movements with yours.Overall your skiing is good and with some small, (but important) corrections you can achieve more beautiful skiing.

Thanks

 

[TDK]

FWIW, I think the title of this thread is deceptive. Its difficult to do MA on skiers who are attempting synchro skiing.

You are probably right but its very hard to come up with new, fresh and interesting topics that invite people to discuss several different aspects. The syncro skiing reference maybe slightly misguiding but there was an element of it and even if the outcome was not very good it fuelled a great discussion. I hope I inspire more people to step out there and try it.

 

[TDK]

those are ok GS turns, why ski on SL skis i you just making med intensity M turns?

DO you have any video of running SL gates?

Here:

 

[LiquidFeet]

Nice flush. I'm envious.
You get closer to the brush on your right-footed turns. Or at least it looks that way. Got any idea why the left-footed turns tend to be a slight bit farther out?

 

[TDK]

Thanks LF - no, I don't know why. And I was not aware of it until you pointed it out. I actually cut the brush in half on the last left hand turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yup. I saw that. Love those brushes; very forgiving.

 

[karlo]

The objective is to turn at the same time, not simply have parallel tracks, right? I think it would help if you agree on a piece of music and sync yourselves with that. Then, your partner can focus on matching edge angles, rather than anticipating your next turn.

 

[TDK]

The objective is to turn at the same time, not simply have parallel tracks, right? I think it would help if you agree on a piece of music and sync yourselves with that. Then, your partner can focus on matching edge angles, rather than anticipating your next turn.

A mobile intercom would be nice. Then the guy at the front could be speaking over the headphones to all participants. I bet this is how the pros train.

 

[john petersen]

Help me with this one, gang....just something Im picking up with TDKs last vid....

tactic or technique?

left turns are started with a slight (and I mean slight....picking nits, here, TDK) shoulder, arm and hand push to the outside, almost like a vestigial upper body rotation to initiate a turn.....right hand gets caught next to or behind the hip and stays wider.......I did not see this on right turns.
not sure if terrain or speed or course or technique with gates or equipment dictated this.
Is there a slight pause in the hips moving into new turns? (mostly at the top of the course) tough from this angle, but body of turn and turn finish look a little bit back in the boots....(again, picking nits, here)....seems like you recover well and easily, though, by the time you are in your turn initiation. Im thinking that perhaps that hand movement and slight upper body rotation on left turns is causing a small, very small pause at turn finish....preventing fluidity between turns at the highest level.

skis move quite well, once you got going...forget the right footed stem at the top of the course...not counting that. Once momentum has a chance to build, the interaction of your skis on the snow is nice. good angles, nice and simultaneous.....

thanks for posting!

JP

PS....its a tight course...great skiing!

PPS what skis are you on? TR? Dimensions?

 

[LiquidFeet]

John,
I'm quoting your carefully worded MA from above:

"....Is there a slight pause in the hips moving into new turns? (mostly at the top of the course) tough from this angle, but body of turn and turn finish look a little bit back in the boots....(again, picking nits, here)....seems like you recover well and easily, though, by the time you are in your turn initiation....."

I am an artist and studio art teacher. I deal deliberately with foreshortening all the time, almost in every assignment. I teach my drawing and painting students to handle the illusion of fore-aft relationships when elements of their subject are pointing straight out towards them. I also teach sculpture students to create realistic three dimensional sculptures from photographs, a process that requires them to reverse engineer the camera's foreshortening. To do this, they have to figure out how far back or forward something recedes or projects using only "indirect indicators" embedded in the photo, even when they lack a side view. I make them take additional photos from all sides as well as from in front, in back, and from above, once they realize that doing all three dimensions is almost impossible to do from a single view because of that foreshortening issue.

Indicating foreshortening in a 2-D work requires embedding "indirect indicators" of a particular sort into the work of art. This is necessary because one cannot see something projecting or receding, either when it's moving or simply taking up extended space, when the plane of movement/extension is perpendicular to the surface of the video or drawing or painting.

We can look for fore-aft movement in a frontal video of a skier coming towards us, and we can sometimes sense it, but this is a supposition. A side view (as you reference above) is far preferable when identifying fore-aft stuff. For these reasons I am always cautious in drawing fore-aft conclusions from a video of a skier moving directly towards or away from the camera.

I enjoy the clarity and insightfulness of your MAs here, so I am curious.... What did you see in the video that leads you to think there might be "a slight pause" in the hips moving down toward the camera at the top of the course, and again what did you see indicating the skier might be "a little bit back in the boots" during the body of turn and turn finish?

 

[bawbawbel]

Rather than comment on TDK, who has dropped back to a fast idle on those ridiculously short skis, I would point out the difficulty that his mate is having to ape TDK's satisfactory counteracting style.
Mate could be a very competitive racer with an aggressive outside pole stopping technique, but now he must decide if he wants to change it completely.
I find that ski lessons without poles and lots of them is the fastest method to achieve this.
Many just don't want to bite the bullet and that phantom pole plant continues to dog them..

 

[john petersen]

Hey, Liquid......

thanks for the questions and nice definition and example of foreshortening. yes, that is what I was eluding to....the lack of 3d perspective or live MA, ect...

John,
I'm quoting your carefully worded MA from above:
"....Is there a slight pause in the hips moving into new turns? (mostly at the top of the course) tough from this angle, but body of turn and turn finish look a little bit back in the boots....(again, picking nits, here)....seems like you recover well and easily, though, by the time you are in your turn initiation....."
We can look for fore-aft movement in a frontal video of a skier coming towards us, and we can sometimes sense it, but this is a supposition. A side view (as you reference above) is far preferable when identifying fore-aft stuff. For these reasons I am always cautious in drawing fore-aft conclusions from a video of a skier moving directly towards or away from the camera.
I enjoy the clarity and insightfulness of your MAs here, so I am curious.... What did you see in the video that leads you to think there might be "a slight pause" in the hips moving down toward the camera at the top of the course, and again what did you see indicating the skier might be "a little bit back in the boots" during the body of turn and turn finish?

What I was pointing out, and questioning myself, is something I have noticed in both the synchro clip and this last clip on left turns. I should clarify that what is happening is only happening for a very small amount of time between the end of one turn and the initiation of the next....because of....either trained tactical movements or a vestigial movement left over from childhood. (and its only really apparent in the slow motion footage) I should also clarify that what I am seeing does not necessarily involve the hips in a purely fore/aft nature....its more a question of where initial turning forces are coming from in some turns, ie the upper body arm swings.

with the skis:
The more I look at the clips and others that he has posted, I think the movement is a tactical "jet"....squirting the skis foragonally .5"-1" at turn finish so they can start engaging the snow for the next turn.....I do not see an out of balance situation in the turns. when I say "a bit back in the boots", I mean perhaps on the heel instead of just in front of it at the end of turns...that aint much!

however, the position of the hands, and what they do are not symmetrical from hand to hand, turn to turn. (same in both vids). Left hand is consistently positioned away from the body more often and once in a while tends to drop just a bit back next to the hip.....while the right hand moves across the body a bit more and stays just a touch more forward. This seems to slightly effect upper/lower body alignment at turn transition when things should be lined up again. I see a more counter rotated relationship between the upper and lower body on some turns.

again, this could be tactical...those brushes are not evenly spaced and turns need to happen at different rates.

What I see and point out does not mean it is incorrect, or correct, its just what Im seeing and may be tactical in nature only. at this level, I should also point out that corrective adjustments in any positional relationship will be very very small, as movement patterns here are already at advanced levels.

Watching the other clips he has posted, I see very nice skiing, especially in recreational parallel basic turns, and shorter turns up through race turns. the drills shown for counter, outside ski engagement, inside leg flexion, outside leg extension, and other exercises are quite nice and good examples. TDK, I appreciate you putting yourself out there and going for it! What are you working on in your skiing this season?.....

incidentally, I do not see this habit repeating itself much in the other vids....though turns are longer....

JP

 

[Kneale Brownson]

John, I think part of the differences in turns you see is related to his difference in pole touch use or non-use.

 

[bawbawbel]

Help me with this one, gang....just something Im picking up with TDKs last vid....

tactic or technique?

left turns are started with a slight (and I mean slight....picking nits, here, TDK) shoulder, arm and hand push to the outside, almost like a vestigial upper body rotation to initiate a turn.....right hand gets caught next to or behind the hip and stays wider.......I did not see this on right turns.
not sure if terrain or speed or course or technique with gates or equipment dictated this.
Is there a slight pause in the hips moving into new turns? (mostly at the top of the course) tough from this angle, but body of turn and turn finish look a little bit back in the boots....(again, picking nits, here)....seems like you recover well and easily, though, by the time you are in your turn initiation. Im thinking that perhaps that hand movement and slight upper body rotation on left turns is causing a small, very small pause at turn finish....preventing fluidity between turns at the highest level.

skis move quite well, once you got going...forget the right footed stem at the top of the course...not counting that. Once momentum has a chance to build, the interaction of your skis on the snow is nice. good angles, nice and simultaneous.....

thanks for posting!

JP

PS....its a tight course...great skiing!

PPS what skis are you on? TR? Dimensions?

I would respectfully submit that provided that if the upper body rotation is ahead of transition and is correctly stopped, we are looking at the move which Ligeti uses to "start the next turn before the existing turn is completed."
Depending on the amount of new inclination, the transferred rotation pressures the ski tips, so looking slightly back seated at that moment.
I tell my students "the new turn is in the old turn's arms". They sometimes look at me funny until they get it....

 

[john petersen]

I would respectfully submit that provided that if the upper body rotation is ahead of transition and is correctly stopped, we are looking at the move which Ligeti uses to "start the next turn before the existing turn is completed."
Depending on the amount of new inclination, the transferred rotation pressures the ski tips, so looking slightly back seated at that moment.
I tell my students "the new turn is in the old turn's arms". They sometimes look at me funny until they get it....

Thanks "B-cubed".....
re the Ligety move: your definition makes sense to me and I do see that happening...this is what I could not quite define, but called tactical.

yes, "depending on the amount of new inclination, transferred rotation pressures the ski tips"...
......if the feet are in the right place under the COM...right? what you are saying is that to engage the whole ski moving into the new turn, with a soft focus on the the shovels of the skis, the feet need to recover from the "jet" at the end of the old turn.....something like that, right?

"the new turn is the old turns arms".........?...processing.

John, I think part of the differences in turns you see is related to his difference in pole touch use or non-use.

thanks, Kneale

tactics, or habit?

JP

 

[bawbawbel]

Thanks "B-cubed".....
re the Ligety move: your definition makes sense to me and I do see that happening...this is what I could not quite define, but called tactical.

yes, "depending on the amount of new inclination, transferred rotation pressures the ski tips"...
......if the feet are in the right place under the COM...right? what you are saying is that to engage the whole ski moving into the new turn, with a soft focus on the the shovels of the skis, the feet need to recover from the "jet" at the end of the old turn.....something like that, right?

"the new turn is the old turns arms".........?...processing.
JP

Thanks for staying with me. Often MY mind goes blank when I reread some of my posts. That must be why I start to feel that I am a thread stopper.
"To teach something properly, you must first understand it completely" One difficult step past "That seems to work, I will use that".
Is it possible to load the tips for a more positive top of the turn edge engagement without losing your centering?
A transferred rotation without body inclination will redirect the skis . ( the COM being directly above the feet. )
But if inclination is already happening the rotation will try to drive the tips into the surface of the snow.
(Forget where I got that insight, might have been from a post by Liquid Feet..)