MA: two skiers carving (video)

[TDK]

TDK,

Good skiing. Snow is coming off from near the tips of the skis. Smooth rounded turns. Appropriate upper lower body separation. Good speed management.

The big thing that pops out at me is that the second skier has a bit of divergence in his skis during the turns. During the shaping section of the turn the tips are farther apart than the tails. This results in a 'glitch' at transition to the next turn. There is a slight forward movement before he can get on the new outside ski. Compare this to the front skier at transition. The front skier smoothly moves from old outside ski to the new outside ski. All I would suggest to the rear skier is to keep the inside ski from 'sliding' forward. Feel more pressure against the tongue of the inside boot. (Keep/pull your inside foot back.)

For a racer that divergence is only a brake preventing skiing the chosen line as fast as possible. Parallel is fast, anything else is slow.

Synchro skiing is great. The follower is focused on the leader and that lets them get out of their conscious mind and just ski. The leader is forced to ski rhythmically and think about what is happening. Good all around for everyone.

Thanks for you great analysis. A good inside ski engagement is very difficult. I struggle with that myself. Very often I end up on my inside ski. That's one thing I have been working on. I also spotted the diverging skis glitch. It also comes from a week turn initiation with little inclining at the top of the turn. You need to get the skis on edge and your torso to the inside so that the skis hook up properly and track straight in the snow.

 

[TDK]

And you have to talk to your friend about his salmiak-suit.

More like a "Hastens sang" kind of speed suit

 

[TDK]

Quick two cents... Platform angle... You have it, your tail gunner doesn't. Why? He's back and in because he's skiing from his hips to this skis. Yup. Dumping. He isn't able to build angles and manage forces progressively like you are doing. Take him out and work on his long and short leg, then some white pass turns. He's not getting over his outside foot in transistion consistently and needs a recentering 'up'. Before going back to syncing, have him follow a turn behind trying to precisely stay in your tracks. You should change your radius in this process to keep him honest. If he's out of balance, he won't succeed. Until then, you'll need to ski in back. About the pole plant comment, I don't get it. I see them just fine. Very nice skiing TDK. You set a task (medium/long radius rythmic turns) and did it well. What it subjectively looks like (medium/lg radius on an SL, etc...) isn't germane IMHO. You could be doing short turns on a 21m ski for that matter, which it doesn't.

Thank you very much for all your nice words on my skiing and for the precise MA called for . People take notice!

 

[JESinstr]

Ironically, coincidentally or luckily, This Bob Barnes diagram was recently posted on the Angulation Thread so I just cut and pasted it and my comments to here.

One of the best diagrams I have seen.
I will repeat here what I posted on TDK's recent MA thread. Edging happens as a result of the inside ski getting shorter. (quote from JF Beaulieu)
If we are doing short radius turns, the need to actively shorten is negated by the countering of the upper mass A2
If we are doing medium and larger turns the inside leg needs to be actively shortened (with foot pulled back underneath) as the turn deepens. B2 You don't get that upward spike of the inside knee by accident!

C2 speaks for itself but I will submit that intentionally countering your upper body to face down hill when your are trying to make medium and larger turns will help lead to hip dump and this demise.
This diagram is a keeper!

 

[markojp]

Though it's much more subtle than the diagram infers.

 

[slowrider]

I struggled with the inside ski issue. Get on a easy slope and pressure the inside boot cuff. Make it turn. Too much then go to countering to the outside ski. Work on it by moving. I still don't get why most of the carvers have their arms out and down. Hands are the leading part of the turn next to skis.

 

[Tony S]

I still don't get why most of the carvers have their arms out and down.

Interesting question. I've wondered this, too.

 

[JESinstr]

Though it's much more subtle than the diagram infers.

You are right. The diagram is just presenting the facts.....implementing them in a subtle way makes you a better skier.

 

[hrstrat57]

Tom your follow skiers turns improved to my eye after he passed the camera. Did you shoot a 2nd run to see if his flaws were caused by camera shyness?

Like others have said I'd like to see these same turns made on GS skis. Whilst I also enjoy medium radius turns on my 165 FIS Racetigers I find my medium /long radius turns are much more powerful on my FIS GS skis. Have you considered trying a ladies FIS GS ski for your medium to long radius turn practice? Might be even more fun than the ladies SL!

 

[mdf]

Rather than dilute the MA here, I'm posting the photos of synchronized mogul skiing over in the remembering Epicski thread.

 

[john petersen]

nice example of a cool task. good synchro. it is not all that easy to do, especially for the follower UNLESS its been practiced a lot. This is beneficial as said above for both skiers, though not all are comfortable doing it.
I pair really well with folks that can turn consistently but tend to like to follow almost everybody because I learn alot from doing that.
I can follow well by using peripheral vision on the leader and "sensing" when he/she is about to turn....(recognize cues like pole touches, transitions, strong turn finishes, ect) peripheral sensing gives you a little freedom to still ski your own turns just enough......

Skier 1
What the skis are doing: slight rush to edge angle at initiation, turns are nice and round, tails follow tips.
lower legs: feet and legs move together simultaneously, nice tipping and guiding. slight rush to inclination of lower legs at initiation
upper legs: hips dump ever so slightly to the inside possibly as a result of a stylistic/functional desire (tripod with hand?)
upper body: angulation is nice, with good stability. only slightly posey (camera and knowledge of partner?)
arms/hands: inside hand seeks snow quickly...outside hand gets caught behind once in a while. (turn palm out, perhaps?)
head: looks to next turn nicely...intent obvious.

Whole Body: there is a very slight rush to initiate some or most turns, and Ideally, turns can be more progressive. (think infinity) constant movement. Im going to assume the slight posing and need to get your hand on the snow is for the camera and perhaps not totally necessary at those (lower) speeds...but your flexibility and range of motion is really quite good.

Skier 2
What the skis are doing: light pivot at the top of his turns, with divergence to the right. (inside half back)
lower legs: feet and legs move together simultaneously, tipping and guiding need more shape early and later (need more slow line fast)
upper legs: hips are locked with legs a bit, this limits shaping, angulation and counter.
upper body: a bit inclined, with decent stability. body is aligned with skis and needs some separation with lower body.
arms/hands: attempting to mimic skier 1.....and are struggling to find a happy place.
head: following skier 1

Whole Body: whereas the movements are fairly smooth and flowing, I see primary moves from mostly cross under and inclination. the rush to cross under seems to lead to a rear weight bias due maybe to jetting feet, but it may be the task, the terrain, or the camera. hips are stiff and I would like to see more progressive angulation and counter.

Thank you for the opportunity to sharpen our MA skills....mine, Im sure need MAA......

JP

PS...I am not too savvy when it comes to racing techniques . I get the feeling some of your movements are directly related to gates....but I could be wrong!

 

[markojp]

I still don't get why most of the carvers have their arms out and down. Hands are the leading part of the turn next to skis.

Do you have a video you can link that illustrates specifically what you mean? Or the name of a particular tech skier that I can look up?

 

[Jamt]

About the pole plant comment, I don't get it. I see them just fine.

There is a pole swing for sure, but what I meant was a more distinct tap to help the trailing skier.

 

[jimtransition]

I struggled with the inside ski issue. Get on a easy slope and pressure the inside boot cuff. Make it turn. Too much then go to countering to the outside ski. Work on it by moving. I still don't get why most of the carvers have their arms out and down. Hands are the leading part of the turn next to skis.

I have a wider hand carriage to more easily adjust my lateral balance, I also like to drag my inside hand at times as an extra bit of support and as a cue to help me incline more. You can be well balanced fore/aft without having your hands out in front of your chest.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

You really cannot pay much attention to yourself when you ski behind somebody. Except if you have trained a lot together as a team. The skier in front needs to be able to keep a steady rhythm and the skier at the back needs to predict every turn as you need time to incline etc. When I do it with a girl from our club I always have her skiing in front. If you are several skiing you should always watch the first skier. Not the one in front of you.

If you as the leader make CONSISTENT pole touches, the trailer(s) can time their turns off your pole touch. Pole touches are lacking in this version.

 

[Bogatyr]

OP if you still follow this thread ,here is what I think very quickly. I may differ from most of the posters above, but if you remember me from elsewhere you should know that I oftentimes say what I think a little more directly. First of all congratulations for posting a video of your skiing for a MA , you deserve respect for this. About your skiing : your biggest flaw is that you use extension during transition and this slows you down and makes your skiing monotone and unattractive. If I should watch your
skiing for 5 or more minutes I will get dizzy. Your turns are anything else, but dynamic and energetic. Your inside hand always looks for the snow which means that you tend to lean into the turn and you don't have enough separation from the hips .You tend to ski with your feet wider then your hips which prevents you from effectively tipping your skis as the turn progresses (and also when you release and when you try to engage the new edges.)As a matter of fact these are "classic " issues and almost 95% of the skiers on the hill have them so I would understand you if you decide to pay 0 attention to what I said here.

 

[BornToSki683]

In terms of syncro skiing, I think it was hard for him to follow you for the following reasons, some mentioned by others already:

1. Your turn size was not consistent. It started out fairly long radius and changed later to much smaller sized.
2. At first the follower was trying to follow your track, but about halfway through he switched to trying to syncro the timing behind you (turn at the same time you do rather then following your track). I think this at least partially is due to the changing turn size I just mentioned, but also the following points:
3. You did not have obvious pole work cues for him to follow.
4. Also, since you are using a fairly static long legged stance with an up and over transition, its hard to see your release from behind, in other words, there is no blatant flexion or extension or something the follower can see, follow, get into a consistent rythmn with, etc. You do an up and over transition, but its hard for the follower to see you are doing it until its too late for him to do it together with you because you aren't doing it very actively, you're just kind of gradually tipping from one side to the other. Since you didn't do it with consistent turn size or timing, how could he possibly sync with you, he was floundering around back there trying to figure out the best way to mirror you.

Regarding basic ski technique, I think you should develop a bit more counter. I also think you are banked inside, particularly at the end of the turn, which goes hand in hand with your non-existant counter. That is kind of classic tip and ride stuff, you get on the edge and hang on to it too long, bracing against the ski in edge lock, but then have a very weak, late, slow and hard to follow release. Get balanced over the outside ski and continue to stay balanced OVER it...not AGAINST it..if you know what I mean....through the last part of the turn. Get your hips over your feet in other words, rather then banked up the hill at the end of the turn. Include counter with that.

That will put you in position to make much more effective releases.

Pole work is missing and pole work would also contribute greatly to you developing counter and better angulation at the end of the turn as previously mentioned, as well as prompting you with more assertive releases.

 

[LiquidFeet]

John Peterson said above:

"What the skis are doing: slight rush to edge angle at initiation, turns are nice and round, tails follow tips.
lower legs: feet and legs move together simultaneously, nice tipping and guiding. slight rush to inclination of lower legs at initiation
upper legs: hips dump ever so slightly to the inside possibly as a result of a stylistic/functional desire (tripod with hand?)
upper body: angulation is nice, with good stability. only slightly posey (camera and knowledge of partner?)
arms/hands: inside hand seeks snow quickly...outside hand gets caught behind once in a while. (turn palm out, perhaps?)
head: looks to next turn nicely...intent obvious.

Whole Body: there is a very slight rush to initiate some or most turns, and Ideally, turns can be more progressive. (think infinity) constant movement. Im going to assume the slight posing and need to get your hand on the snow is for the camera and perhaps not totally necessary at those (lower) speeds...but your flexibility and range of motion is really quite good."

This formula for doing MA is fantastic. It covers everything, starting at the feet and going up. The specifics for each element are followed by an overview. Reading your observations of two skiers who are skiing differently helped to tease out how this formula can work. I'm stealing it! Thanks.

 

[slowrider]

I have a wider hand carriage to more easily adjust my lateral balance, I also like to drag my inside hand at times as an extra bit of support and as a cue to help me incline more. You can be well balanced fore/aft without having your hands out in front of your chest.

Can't agree with the last part. But if that works for you. I feel alot more control with hands in front.

 

[Jilly]

John Peterson said above:

"What the skis are doing: slight rush to edge angle at initiation, turns are nice and round, tails follow tips.
lower legs: feet and legs move together simultaneously, nice tipping and guiding. slight rush to inclination of lower legs at initiation
upper legs: hips dump ever so slightly to the inside possibly as a result of a stylistic/functional desire (tripod with hand?)
upper body: angulation is nice, with good stability. only slightly posey (camera and knowledge of partner?)
arms/hands: inside hand seeks snow quickly...outside hand gets caught behind once in a while. (turn palm out, perhaps?)
head: looks to next turn nicely...intent obvious.

Whole Body: there is a very slight rush to initiate some or most turns, and Ideally, turns can be more progressive. (think infinity) constant movement. Im going to assume the slight posing and need to get your hand on the snow is for the camera and perhaps not totally necessary at those (lower) speeds...but your flexibility and range of motion is really quite good."

This formula for doing MA is fantastic. It covers everything, starting at the feet and going up. The specifics for each element are followed by an overview. Reading your observations of two skiers who are skiing differently helped to tease out how this formula can work. I'm stealing it! Thanks.

I like this too. Think I'll print that off and add it to the folder with that poster/progression.
This is basically what our course conductor on the CSIA III stated. Start at the bottom and work your way up the body. This is stated a little more eloquently.