Not to disparage a national hero, but I seem to recall Stenmark didn't compete in the downhill, he specialized in slalom and giant slalom while his prime competition (i.e. the Mahres) didn't specialize, splitting training and resources amongst the downhill and possibly Super G, I can't remember the chronology of it. Stenmark had a big role in ushering in specialization and arguably had a short cut to winning. It's one of the reasons Super G came into being, to give more points to speed events to counter specialization.
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Lindsey historical
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But it wasn't just Stenmark who disliked the super-g. From Wikipedia, "The event was not universally embraced during its early years, which included a boycott by two-time defending overall champion Phil Mahre in December 1982."
I'm not basing criticism on super G. I'm basing it on the downhill. Super G was created to counter specialization so as a new arguably contrived event it wouldn't be surprising if there were detractors. Had Stenmark run the downhill Super G becomes kind of a irrelevant.
@Muleski being of the race world and appropriate vintage may have better insight than me here.
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Well Tomba didn't race downhill either. Said his mother wouldn't let him. Imagine an Austrian saying that!
Hermann Maier disliked downhill. Thought it had "too many boring gliding sections".
I believe the Streif was exempt from the disdain...
Super-G was his thing.
Hermann Maier disliked downhill. Thought it had "too many boring gliding sections".
I believe the Streif was exempt from the disdain...Super-G was his thing.
Stenmark suffered a bad DH crash in the summer in the late 70's. He was "spooked", and I am pretty sure that he raced in just one WC DH as part of a combined, and he was 10+ seconds out. Not his thing. And he was unapologetic.
SG was introduced near the end of his career. He raced a few. Things were very different then in terms of SG course sets and speeds. A WC GS of today reminds me a lot of the initial SG's. As I recall, Stenmark did not do that well, though nobody doubted that he could have been great. The guy had the best touch of anybody.
A lot of people initially thought SG was some BS hybrid. Just some ploy to favor the speed fans. Some sissyfied version of DH. That is until it was raced a fair amount. It's a GREAT event. Inspect and one run. No training days. Hard to imagine things today with no SG.
It was explained to me that as a young ski racer, Stenmark simply had a different upbringing than say an Austrian. He developed his perfect technical skills, at home. Back in those days, "National Development" teams and projects were rarely flying kids to places to develop speed skills.
Stenmark was just amazing. The rate at which he won, and his margins were incredible. He owned the SL and GS disciplines. The math worked such that he was able to win his globes with no DH. If you look back in history, you will notice a big number of combineds added to the schedules after he became dominant, and won the overall. Then of course the SG's were added.
I have had some old, sage gentlemen involved with FIS, and the WC, tell me that in particular the Austrians and the Swiss, but really all of the European Federations, joined by the USA, felt strongly that it was just "wrong" that Stenmark could win the overall without being an "all rounder". They all placed their DH heroes on pedestals. Those guys were the alpinists! How could some Swede refuse to ski speed and be the best? Funny, if some guy won in just DH and GS, there may have been no uprising. But there was no such guy!
OK, so change the rules. I know that one year that Phil Mahre won, he won something like 3-4 races. That was it. He killed the combined races in particular. Won four or five globes. He was on a lot of SL podiums, and crashed in a lot! Phil winning pissed off a ton of Euro's, so the rules then changed again. Fewer combineds. More SG's.
I have never had a great handle on Phil Mahre. Or Steve. I have met both as younger guys. Both were real introverts. I guess you could perhaps attribute it to being competitive. They sure as heck did not try to make friends. The twins had each other. Pretty much their own program. I think they "softened" as they got older...some cynics saying that they realized they needed to be nice to the customers. I think we all change, and the last time I had a chat with Phil he could not have been nicer. This is when he was making his race comeback, hoping to qualify for Nationals at 50.
In following years, I recall reading comments from both Mahres about how much they respected Stenmark. They stopped short of saying that he was by FAR a much better skier....all of the DH and gamesmanship aside.
I can't recall any suggestion that he was anything but a great competitor.
Watch some video of that era, SL and GS. I think it shocks most people. Stenmark's quiet upper body, incredible balance and touch, along with great tactics led him to those 87 wins. I think Phil won about 15 SL and GS WC races. Zero DH. A TON of combineds.
Phil was no doubt an incredible athlete and competitor. No Stenmark.
Stenmark won 8 SL globes and 8 GS globes. That is just amazing. Still blows me away.
Very different era. Always hard to compare the guys from other eras. Safe to say he was amazing. I also think that the fact that LV will hopefully challenge his win mark is equally amazing.
SG was introduced near the end of his career. He raced a few. Things were very different then in terms of SG course sets and speeds. A WC GS of today reminds me a lot of the initial SG's. As I recall, Stenmark did not do that well, though nobody doubted that he could have been great. The guy had the best touch of anybody.
A lot of people initially thought SG was some BS hybrid. Just some ploy to favor the speed fans. Some sissyfied version of DH. That is until it was raced a fair amount. It's a GREAT event. Inspect and one run. No training days. Hard to imagine things today with no SG.
It was explained to me that as a young ski racer, Stenmark simply had a different upbringing than say an Austrian. He developed his perfect technical skills, at home. Back in those days, "National Development" teams and projects were rarely flying kids to places to develop speed skills.
Stenmark was just amazing. The rate at which he won, and his margins were incredible. He owned the SL and GS disciplines. The math worked such that he was able to win his globes with no DH. If you look back in history, you will notice a big number of combineds added to the schedules after he became dominant, and won the overall. Then of course the SG's were added.
I have had some old, sage gentlemen involved with FIS, and the WC, tell me that in particular the Austrians and the Swiss, but really all of the European Federations, joined by the USA, felt strongly that it was just "wrong" that Stenmark could win the overall without being an "all rounder". They all placed their DH heroes on pedestals. Those guys were the alpinists! How could some Swede refuse to ski speed and be the best? Funny, if some guy won in just DH and GS, there may have been no uprising. But there was no such guy!
OK, so change the rules. I know that one year that Phil Mahre won, he won something like 3-4 races. That was it. He killed the combined races in particular. Won four or five globes. He was on a lot of SL podiums, and crashed in a lot! Phil winning pissed off a ton of Euro's, so the rules then changed again. Fewer combineds. More SG's.
I have never had a great handle on Phil Mahre. Or Steve. I have met both as younger guys. Both were real introverts. I guess you could perhaps attribute it to being competitive. They sure as heck did not try to make friends. The twins had each other. Pretty much their own program. I think they "softened" as they got older...some cynics saying that they realized they needed to be nice to the customers. I think we all change, and the last time I had a chat with Phil he could not have been nicer. This is when he was making his race comeback, hoping to qualify for Nationals at 50.
In following years, I recall reading comments from both Mahres about how much they respected Stenmark. They stopped short of saying that he was by FAR a much better skier....all of the DH and gamesmanship aside.
I can't recall any suggestion that he was anything but a great competitor.
Watch some video of that era, SL and GS. I think it shocks most people. Stenmark's quiet upper body, incredible balance and touch, along with great tactics led him to those 87 wins. I think Phil won about 15 SL and GS WC races. Zero DH. A TON of combineds.
Phil was no doubt an incredible athlete and competitor. No Stenmark.
Stenmark won 8 SL globes and 8 GS globes. That is just amazing. Still blows me away.
Very different era. Always hard to compare the guys from other eras. Safe to say he was amazing. I also think that the fact that LV will hopefully challenge his win mark is equally amazing.
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I think Phil came close in some DHs, it was more a matter that he didn't race them all but he had the skills.
I was around when Super G came out and to most of us it seemed like the Austrians and Atomic stacking the deck so they could win something. They've been behind all the stupid rule changes trying to game an advantage every time... 35m GS, etc.
I like how the Mahres have been no-BS and said Bode skied like Gumby and they'd give Bill Johnson lip, etc. Good old school American blue-collar Get R Done farmer discipline.
One story is that some B-teamer was fooling around with duct tape shims under his bindings for cant and they ripped them off and told him to man up and stop dicking around. Amen!
I was around when Super G came out and to most of us it seemed like the Austrians and Atomic stacking the deck so they could win something. They've been behind all the stupid rule changes trying to game an advantage every time... 35m GS, etc.
I like how the Mahres have been no-BS and said Bode skied like Gumby and they'd give Bill Johnson lip, etc. Good old school American blue-collar Get R Done farmer discipline.
One story is that some B-teamer was fooling around with duct tape shims under his bindings for cant and they ripped them off and told him to man up and stop dicking around. Amen!
That DH crash was actually caught on film. I'll see if I can find it online somewhere. It was in practice and Stenmark was unconcius and then hospitalized in Italy. There are also footage of him in the hospital bed, wearing a huge neck protector, doing leg weight training.
Ok so you have to turn the sound down because it's 90% in Swedish.
Crash is in 5:30.
This clip is from a show where retired athletes compete against each other in different challenges (needless to say Ingemar won that too).
He said that his biggest victory was that they had to change the rules.
Another fun detail is about riding a one wheel bicycle and walking on a rope. He says he just learned it for fun one summer. But he noticed that the Austrians were looking at everything he did and it didn't take long until the started to spend time on rope walking and one wheeled cycling. "I spent my time skiing instead" he chuckled.
Crash is in 5:30.
This clip is from a show where retired athletes compete against each other in different challenges (needless to say Ingemar won that too).
He said that his biggest victory was that they had to change the rules.
Another fun detail is about riding a one wheel bicycle and walking on a rope. He says he just learned it for fun one summer. But he noticed that the Austrians were looking at everything he did and it didn't take long until the started to spend time on rope walking and one wheeled cycling. "I spent my time skiing instead" he chuckled.
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Haha. Either myth or something else. Guess who was using cants on his Cabers. Stenmark. Guess he needed to man up.
I think it was more a matter that the guy was blaming a single layer of duct tape, plus or minus, for his mediocre performance.
Oy, I'm not a fashion magazine reader but I have feeds set up to see anything ski related in my news.
This came up from Elle Magazine.
Inspiring Stories: Lindsey Vonn
Snip from article.
The Olympic gold medalist and World Cup women's record holder is on a fervent quest to become the world's best skier, a dream that's nearing reality. In an ongoing partnership with Rolex, we explore Vonn's journey along with those of other exceptional women.
*the comments in some of the "view the gallery" area are pretty nice, geared more toward the average magazine reader.
This came up from Elle Magazine.
Inspiring Stories: Lindsey Vonn
Snip from article.
The Olympic gold medalist and World Cup women's record holder is on a fervent quest to become the world's best skier, a dream that's nearing reality. In an ongoing partnership with Rolex, we explore Vonn's journey along with those of other exceptional women.
*the comments in some of the "view the gallery" area are pretty nice, geared more toward the average magazine reader.
Following LV in media could be a full time job.
I tend to disregard it, as SO much is quite twisted, fabricated, exaggerated, etc.
On the ski side....lets hope that she keeps getting it dialed in, has a good year end, concentrates on the sport through the off season and has a monster 2017-2018 to wrap it up.
Frankly, any serious race fan could care less about her being at the opera, blah blah. But....her agent/managers are trying to set her up for post-retirement from skiing. Guess her million plus followers on Instagram are worth something!
I tend to disregard it, as SO much is quite twisted, fabricated, exaggerated, etc.
On the ski side....lets hope that she keeps getting it dialed in, has a good year end, concentrates on the sport through the off season and has a monster 2017-2018 to wrap it up.
Frankly, any serious race fan could care less about her being at the opera, blah blah. But....her agent/managers are trying to set her up for post-retirement from skiing. Guess her million plus followers on Instagram are worth something!
OK....18 months ago, before her latest knee injury, the humerus break, and to be honest, her summer of social media and the new lean, super toned body, I would have bet the farm on LV just blowing by Stenmark's win record. I actually would have bet with a bit of a nudge on 100+ wins. Anybody with me back then?
So how do we feel about it now?
I think that 100 is never going to happen. And I am now thinking that 87 wins {86 to tie} may not be in the cards. I hope that it is.
LV is not a kid. Two years ago nobody thought that Ilka Stuhec would ever win A SINGLE WC race. Talent for sure, but not top of the podium talent. Look at this season. She is going to win the DH globe and has won 3 of the last 4 SG's. She may well win the SG globe, and is going to push MS for the overall. Incredible.
Lara Gut is about the same age as Stuhec. 26? Sophia Goggia is about the same, and having been healthy this season, is getting fast and consistent. Tina W has become faster and consistent, being healthy. All pushing hard.
The threat to LV getting the record is time, and Stuhec. Ilka is a big woman, strong, and she can glide. She carries a lot more speed than the rest of the field. She can ski a big ski. She unquestionably has "great product" in terms of very fast skis. And she is skiing so well, with both confidence and a smile.
Lindsey is almost certainly planning on retiring after 2018. That means 9 wins to tie Stenmark, and 10 to beat him. That is a LOT. The hills where I would normally pencil her in to win are hills that really suit Stuhec.
Do I think LV can be better in the fall than she is now, if she works like a dog to get ready? Absolutely yes. I think she can get her SG timing and technique back. I hope that the nerve issues in her hand and arm improve. I think she can put herself in a position to podium in almost every speed race. Figure she will crash in a couple. I also think she can win any of her next four starts.
But WIN TEN??? I think that will be hard.
She's the best female ever, the best speed skier of all time, the best American...the best at a lot. It may be that at some point chasing Stenmark is just not going to happen.
Which to me will make Stenmark's record, as incredible as it is, even more impressive.
I wish LV the very best in this pursuit. If she can pick up a win, or two in the last four of the season, I'll be more optimistic.
Speaking of incredible....this season of Stuhec's is just an explosive breakthrough. Wow.
So how do we feel about it now?
I think that 100 is never going to happen. And I am now thinking that 87 wins {86 to tie} may not be in the cards. I hope that it is.
LV is not a kid. Two years ago nobody thought that Ilka Stuhec would ever win A SINGLE WC race. Talent for sure, but not top of the podium talent. Look at this season. She is going to win the DH globe and has won 3 of the last 4 SG's. She may well win the SG globe, and is going to push MS for the overall. Incredible.
Lara Gut is about the same age as Stuhec. 26? Sophia Goggia is about the same, and having been healthy this season, is getting fast and consistent. Tina W has become faster and consistent, being healthy. All pushing hard.
The threat to LV getting the record is time, and Stuhec. Ilka is a big woman, strong, and she can glide. She carries a lot more speed than the rest of the field. She can ski a big ski. She unquestionably has "great product" in terms of very fast skis. And she is skiing so well, with both confidence and a smile.
Lindsey is almost certainly planning on retiring after 2018. That means 9 wins to tie Stenmark, and 10 to beat him. That is a LOT. The hills where I would normally pencil her in to win are hills that really suit Stuhec.
Do I think LV can be better in the fall than she is now, if she works like a dog to get ready? Absolutely yes. I think she can get her SG timing and technique back. I hope that the nerve issues in her hand and arm improve. I think she can put herself in a position to podium in almost every speed race. Figure she will crash in a couple. I also think she can win any of her next four starts.
But WIN TEN??? I think that will be hard.
She's the best female ever, the best speed skier of all time, the best American...the best at a lot. It may be that at some point chasing Stenmark is just not going to happen.
Which to me will make Stenmark's record, as incredible as it is, even more impressive.
I wish LV the very best in this pursuit. If she can pick up a win, or two in the last four of the season, I'll be more optimistic.
Speaking of incredible....this season of Stuhec's is just an explosive breakthrough. Wow.
Yes, because real WC skiers don't need boots that work.
I can only guess what the Mahres would have said if someone told them " first you must go to a bootfitter".....
Having held one of Phil's boots from 1980'ish in my hand, I know that they were slated for work, and at a time when few thought messing with boots was the thing to do. I'll see if I can get a picture of the boot. It's in shop storage at the moment.
When you get the chance, pull the liners out and look at the zeppa. Don't be surprised if you see a fair number of felt shims glued on. His primary fitters were the guys that basically trained me in fitting and both told me about the felt shims. When I worked for Lange, Phil would always spend some time in the booth in Vegas at the SIA show. He vaguely knew me as a "boot guy" from various camps etc but mostly just from conversations in the booth each year. He did say once that he never found a magic bullet with the felt shims but messed around a fair bit with it.
I was going to post this just now, but you beat me to it!
I've been reading this thread with interest. Spending time at Crested Butte and watching David Chodounsky struggle to get himself to WC skiing without USST support, was painful. I hope the USST can find its way to recognizing the value of NCAA skiing as a way to make the US more competitive on the World Cup circuit.
I went to the University of Denver many, many years ago (pre-World Cup) and the university was not at all shy about recruiting foreign athletes (maybe all Norwegians) for both its alpine and nordic teams. Anyone remember Jan Stenerud who was a great field goal/extra point kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs? He was a NCAA skier before starting setting records in pro football. So those foreign guys have been around for awhile.
Well, this doesn't fit here. Musta got lost online. Too late to fix it now.
I went to the University of Denver many, many years ago (pre-World Cup) and the university was not at all shy about recruiting foreign athletes (maybe all Norwegians) for both its alpine and nordic teams. Anyone remember Jan Stenerud who was a great field goal/extra point kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs? He was a NCAA skier before starting setting records in pro football. So those foreign guys have been around for awhile.
Well, this doesn't fit here. Musta got lost online. Too late to fix it now.
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