Is Lindsey Vonn the Greatest Ski Racer of All Time??

[Muleski]

Lindsey is not racing Svindall. She is racing other women. That's the competition. She did aspire to compete directly with the men but never did. Hypothetical races ignore the reality of the head to head competition. In a few instances directly comparisons are possible so slightly less flawed but lacking the huge competition effect.

This is about who we feel is the best ever. Hype and publicity are factors. As is the timing. Lindsey is the current challenger to Stenmark's win record - not there yet. She's also skiing very well under pressure while recovering. There is a lot of potential for her legacy. It's entertaining watching her career progress. But it's not over - and she needs a bit more.

Eric

I'm pretty much done with this. Turning into am "Epic Last Word" thread. I must have given you the wrong impression.

I mentioned the Svindall/LV "game" as those are the exact types of conversations that were taking place among those who are skiing, working, and running the WC tour at the same time that Ms. Vonn was making yet another publicity play, insisting that she really felt that she should be allowed to race against the men. I have no dog in the hunt. If she wanted to ski, fine with me. I am not a fan of her endless self promotion, and yes, I know her and have for more than half of her life.

So when she came out with that plan, even threatening to bring it to court, the enormous hilarity among not just men, but those who ski and work on the women's tour was huge. And comments like @Primoz recently posted were the norm. So that is my only point. If there is anybody on the planet who somehow thinks that she could compete head to head with the men, even on the easiest tracks, or could have in her prime, just forget about that. That was my little illustration. Of course, there will never be any "proof."

Now I am not one of those who gets all hung up on this best skier ever thing, as there is NO answer. I have posted to that effect. LV is the best female speed skier in history. Without question. I think based on her win total, that she is the most successful speed skier ever, regardless of gender. And yes, that is dependent on a lot of things. Like her competition. She had a lot of tough competitors, and look at her results. Phenomenal.

But trying to "best ever" when you look at different genders, the age of event specialization, the fact that some tremendous careers are cut short by injury, and on and on is a fool's argument.

I think that the entire world will be anxious to see if she can in fact beat Stenmark's win record. As others have expressed, it is going to be very hard. I've expressed my opinion on the challenges in other posts. She is not the same, and her competition is better. The "X factor" is that she is so driven to win this. Over the top. She may actually focus on it, and leave the runway behind for a year or more. LV can podium in a ton of DH and SG. Winning is a tougher hurdle. There was a time when if she skied clean, she won. Not that simple these days.

I love @Mendieta's point about Stenmark's win percentage. There was a time when in speed, LV was winning a ton as well. And on the horizon, depending on how her GS develops, and on who else might appear to chase her, MS will blow that win percentage away, IMO.

Podium percentage would be interesting. Hirscher would own that one. That has been his plan to will all of his WC's.

No more thoughts for this thread on LV, greatest or not. Hope it's a great season for her.

 

[Frankly]

No diss on woman skiers but when I was an unaccomplished LOWLY wannabe me and all of my dirtbag friends easily outskiied the best USST women circa 1980. Because we practiced together and timed runs, the proof was obvious and it wasn't even competitive.

The women were better athletes than me in every way other than the times. Same goes for LV.

 

[Muleski]

No diss on woman skiers but when I was an unaccomplished LOWLY wannabe me and all of my dirtbag friends easily outskiied the best USST women circa 1980. Because we practiced together and timed runs, the proof was obvious and it wasn't even competitive.

The women were better athletes than me in every way other than the times. Same goes for LV.

Nothing new, but a great point. The one exception to some of this might be MS in SL. In the right set, right surface, she is so much better than the other women that she would beat a few guys.

When my daughter was in college, skiing with some women now on the WC, those women were beaten in training by a lot of pretty non WC guys.

I expected that somebody might raise this one: that LV sometimes trains with the USST speed men. I think it's done more for press and PR. It's always in Chile in the sun, or at Copper before the start of the season. A year or so ago, a friend of ours {a woman} commented to me that they do not time those runs. Her assumption was that it was because LV would be embarrassing the guys. Truth, as I have heard it, is that they don't do it because of her pretty huge and sometimes fragile ego, and her temper. Her normal training runs are obviously all timed. And her being supremely confident is a big part of her getting to the podium.

Taking this down gender lines is a mistake. I tried to side with Lee on his waterskiing. I believe that, and have seen it. This is entirely different. The best girls beat the best boys, in some cases, as U12's. By U14 ages, that is over. Unless you have a young MS with average guys, creating a huge talent gap. My daughter used to pretty frequently "girl" the guys as a J4. Never close as a J3.

Funny to think back on that.

 

[Primoz]

@Muleski I doubt Shiffrin would do much better either. I can't tell for sure, as I have no data for her, but few years ago, another MS (Marlies Schild) did forerun Schladming night SL, and her runs were timed. Not officially, but coaches on WC tour got those times. It's hard to compare how superior Schild was to others at that time compared to how superior Shiffrin is to others today, and same goes for any non-direct comparison (including Vonn vs. Stenmark or anyone else not racing directly against them), but let's say Schild was another league then the rest of the field in women SL at that time. Yet, on first SL she forerun, she wouldn't even qualify for second run. On second race year or two later, she would hardly catch place 30, but conditions were really bad, so front numbers had huge advantage over number 10 already, not to mention against number 40 or 50. So this can give some sort of perspective on this. But it's impossible for me to tell how Shiffrin would do today, but honestly, I doubt it would be much different. You can already hear difference between men and women skiing just standing on course and listening plastic slapping. Believe it or not, there's big difference in power and speed, so big that you don't even need timed run to know who's faster.
And about being sexist or whatever. @Eleeski .. I'm not living in USA so I have never had this need for being politically correct I know it's totally wrong, but I tell what I think, even if it's not politically correct. It's not me who started this crap about "I want to race with men, and if you won't let me, I will go to court". I just wrote what's reality, and reality has nothing to do with PR stunts. This year in Kitz I have been talking with few coaches (we will see, but this might actually come out on next FIS meeting , and common opinion between these guys is, to let her start Kitz, have as many training runs she wants, she can pick whatever number she would want, and then let her ski down the Streif and time her run, and if she by any kind of accident will survive it, we will all be relieved of her PR crap about how she will go and sue FIS for not letting her run (and probably in her PR guy's opinion win) against men. But as I wrote before, anyone who ever saw her inspecting (and then skiing) women's course that was icy (women icy and men icy are two different things), knows how much chances she has doing men course

 

[Eleeski]

I love it, I'm PC! I regularly get in trouble for not respecting the PC viewpoint, including here.

My comments come from my perspective - which involves world class waterskiers. I know how much the women world record holders (I've personally skied with or coached) hold back to assure their placement at the top of the women's ranking. The focus and training is not aimed at beating everyone, just the relevant competition.

Is Lindsey better than the men? Not until she actually gets to compete against them to see what is needed to win. After that, who knows? Given where she is in her late career, I'm honestly as skeptical as many of you that she will excel against the men. But it's not a fair measurement now.

It's also not fair to discount her for opportunities she never had.

Her legacy is not complete yet. Hopefully this discussion will be more relevant in a couple years. Or not - depending on MS or some other rising star.

Eric

Take my Lindsey comments with as wishful thinking. I don't have the same snow ski insight as you all. I can never figure why my times in a snow ski race course are so slow when "I'm the best skier on the mountain!"

 

[jimtransition]

Nothing new, but a great point. The one exception to some of this might be MS in SL. In the right set, right surface, she is so much better than the other women that she would beat a few guys.

When my daughter was in college, skiing with some women now on the WC, those women were beaten in training by a lot of pretty non WC guys.

I expected that somebody might raise this one: that LV sometimes trains with the USST speed men. I think it's done more for press and PR. It's always in Chile in the sun, or at Copper before the start of the season. A year or so ago, a friend of ours {a woman} commented to me that they do not time those runs. Her assumption was that it was because LV would be embarrassing the guys. Truth, as I have heard it, is that they don't do it because of her pretty huge and sometimes fragile ego, and her temper. Her normal training runs are obviously all timed. And her being supremely confident is a big part of her getting to the podium.

Taking this down gender lines is a mistake. I tried to side with Lee on his waterskiing. I believe that, and have seen it. This is entirely different. The best girls beat the best boys, in some cases, as U12's. By U14 ages, that is over. Unless you have a young MS with average guys, creating a huge talent gap. My daughter used to pretty frequently "girl" the guys as a J4. Never close as a J3.

Funny to think back on that.

The US womens team is almost always in Portillo with the Norwegian men and Canadian men, the US mens team comes the next block. They often have separate courses on the same run. I heard that a few years back Lindsey was competitive with some of the guys when she ran their course, the past few seasons she has always been coming back from injury. I have the feeling that on an 'easy' DH she might do okay, on the Streif, I very much doubt it.

 

[hbear]

Not diving into the Male vs. female debate too far. But it's just fact that there are many vehicles in sport were women (even the very best in the world) have significant difficultly in being competitive with the men. There ARE differences in gender that effect this. Muscle mass, size, absolute strength, strength to body weight, etc. that has zero to do with opportunities during development. As for LV, as mentioned in prior threads, the advantages she has over her competition (size, glide, able to work the bigger ski, etc.) are all negated against the men. Yes there are going to be men she is going to beat, but that is very different than being competitive. To me podium is being competitive, simply finishing the course is not.

That aside, I'm one that does believe LV will come into next season as ready as ever. Let's face it her desire to win is absolutely mental, like many top athletes balancing that fine line of competitive and batshit crazy. Needless to say she's focused on the win record, and provided she stays healthy I would not bet against her. Yes her competition is better now, Ilka is running faster, we should see a stronger Gut and Goggia is racing as well as she has ever....however do keep in mind this past year had Vonn coming into the season not fully prepared (injury will do that), her timing was off, her confidence was not as rock solid given her prep wasn't where she wanted it to be, yet she still managed to find a win and got onto the podium a bunch as well. Remember Goggia barely beat her and LV made some pretty significant errors on her run. If LV is pretty close when she's not skiing her A game, I'd expect to see a bunch of wins when she does. And also remember Vonn didn't ski at Lake Louise....hard to argue that venue has been good to her and one where she does have a significant advantage.

Next season should be interesting, would love to see the competition level increase as this past year the depth of field given injury and the like just wasn't where it should've been.

 

[PisteOff]

@Frankly just sarcasm I have seen and ski down way too many women and men races, including Streif, and I have seen Vonn way too many times during inspection when things get icy (for women... for men those conditions would be "shitty soft course" ) to really think she would stand a chance to come down Streif or Lauberhorn in race mode alive, and that's light years away from winning

Didn't they try this in golf???

 

[SBrown]

You can already hear difference between men and women skiing just standing on course and listening plastic slapping. Believe it or not, there's big difference in power and speed, so big that you don't even need timed run to know who's faster.

I think anyone who has watched elite sports up close and in person, not just on TV, would believe this. At least the power+speed sports. After sitting courtside at a pro tennis tournament, no one would truly think that Serena could ever beat Djokovic.

 

[hbear]

Didn't they try this in golf???

And she was the best women's golfer ever on a "short" course and fairly low rough. For Annika it was partly the length the men play at, but mostly such a HUGE difference in how they prepare the course. The men play with higher rough, firmer greens and are required to hit more technically demanding (and strength requiring) shots around the green that the ladies just can't pull off to the same degree. All of these things being a factor of club head speed and strength differences.

Now take the very best female golfers in the world and they will absolutely crush an amateur scratch player over the course of a 4 round tournament. We see this as a course in town hosts a LPGA event and I know what scratch players shoot on any given day and in tournament conditions.....the ladies win that easily. But a male scratch player is light years away from a touring pro.

 

[PisteOff]

And she was the best women's golfer ever on a "short" course and fairly low rough. For Annika it was partly the length the men play at, but mostly such a HUGE difference in how they prepare the course. The men play with higher rough, firmer greens and are required to hit more technically demanding (and strength requiring) shots around the green that the ladies just can't pull off to the same degree. All of these things being a factor of club head speed and strength differences.

I know and she did well all things considered. She was probably the strongest women's golfer we've ever seen, at least that I can recall. She trained like an animal. There's none like her now that I am aware of. I watch a little LPGA but don't follow it anywhere near how I do the PGA. It's the same thing here in skiing. The course set up is very different as has been mentioned previously. Vonn on the Strief? I doubt it. Not to say she couldn't ski it, of course she can, but compete with the men? She might have a shot at a couple of them........ I don't see it...The women are pretty spent by the time they finish the races they run in the women's circuit.

 

[Superbman]

I think anyone who has watched elite sports up close and in person, not just on TV, would believe this. At least the power+speed sports. After sitting courtside at a pro tennis tournament, no one would truly think that Serena could ever beat Djokovic.

Beat Djokovic??? How about some 203rd rank clown...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsten_Braasch

 

[hbear]

I get where you are coming from but missing the cut isn't "doing pretty good." I'd have to check but that missed cut would put her outside the top 70 that tournament. If I remember she wasn't DFL but she certainly was not competitive.

For what it's worth I am a big Annika fan and thought it was great for her to tee it up with the big boys. We did certainly see the gap between her (the best female golfer ever) and even the journeymen pros. Doubtful LV would be any different if she raced the boys.

Not a slight or knock, just my perspective based on what I know.

 

[Eleeski]

I think anyone who has watched elite sports up close and in person, not just on TV, would believe this. At least the power+speed sports. After sitting courtside at a pro tennis tournament, no one would truly think that Serena could ever beat Djokovic.

Wasn't Bobby Riggs a former number one tennis player who claimed he could beat any woman? Didn't Billie Jean King trounce him? Our sure things aren't always as sure as we think.

Back to the original topic, honestly, as I really think about it, Killy is the standard for the best ever. Incomparable racer and Snow Job was a great movie. Athletes are entertainers, Killy was great. Vonn has a way to go.

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

All timeGreatest HELL NO! Among the top yes.

As to which one is that, I don't have one, just a group.

 

[jimtransition]

Wasn't Bobby Riggs a former number one tennis player who claimed he could beat any woman? Didn't Billie Jean King trounce him? Our sure things aren't always as sure as we think.

Back to the original topic, honestly, as I really think about it, Killy is the standard for the best ever. Incomparable racer and Snow Job was a great movie. Athletes are entertainers, Killy was great. Vonn has a way to go.

Eric

There was a 26 year age difference in her favour, I don't really think that example is relevant when comparing athletes competing at the peak of their abilities.

 

[Ulmerhutte]

I am not sure that it is valid to compare results from different times. Equipment, technique, course prep, etc have obviously evolved considerably. That does not necessarily mean today's WC skiers are better, or worse, then those who went before them. That said, I do wonder what somebody like Ted Ligety would make of this course...

 

[Superbman]

Wasn't Bobby Riggs a former number one tennis player who claimed he could beat any woman? Didn't Billie Jean King trounce him? Our sure things aren't always as sure as we think.

B

Eric

Bobby Riggs was 56 when he played Billie Jean King, she was number 2 in the world. I don't even know why anyone though this would be close (it was 6-3, 6-4. 6-3).
What's even more shocking is just a few months earlier Bobby Riggs did beat the woman's number 1 in the world (Margaret Court). I'd expect Lindsey Vonn to Trounce Franz Klammer if they raced right now, but that has no bearing on equating women's sports with men's sports.

 

[Eleeski]

Bobby Riggs was 56 when he played Billie Jean King, she was number 2 in the world. I don't even know why anyone though this would be close (it was 6-3, 6-4. 6-3).
What's even more shocking is just a few months earlier Bobby Riggs did beat the woman's number 1 in the world (Margaret Court). I'd expect Lindsey Vonn to Trounce Franz Klammer if they raced right now, but that has no bearing on equating women's sports with men's sports.

I believe Lindsey would beat Klammer if they raced today even if Klammer was at his peak age. Technology and training is far better today as are female opportunities to develop. Of course the current men benefit as well so perhaps she would not fare well against the current men. The comparison between different genders and eras is somewhat meaningless but fun anyway.

Regarding the age difference between Riggs and King, I hit my athletic peak in waterskiing in my 50s - qualifying for Open for the first time then. Ageism annoys me more than sexism. Youth is wasted on young people.

No comments on Killy's movie Snow Job?

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

Vonn beat Klammer maybe today, then again maybe not. This is video of him in 2011.

In his peak, not a chance, Vonn is to controlled to risk it all to up it to Klammers level at his peak. That let it all ride is what made him with skill and luck thrown in for good measure.

Sorry she's not crazy enough.