Drill Hands..Where do I put my freaking hands?

[1chris5]

I am trying to find the skiing style that fits my build, temperament and terrain. I am wondering if my hands should be the place to start? Currently I ski Blue Mountain, which is in the Poconos. It mostly groomed, ice, crud and weird moguls. @Philpug shared a link to some Hart pulse skis, that led me to research of the 'pulse' ski on youtube that led me to Paul Dineen, awesome bump skier for Hart skis (I forgot about the Hart Pulse ski) and was intrigued by his teaching video on how to use hands in the bumps:
His hands are mostly still. Now I realize he is a specialty skier but can this technique translate more to all mountain skiing? I came upon another video of a skier I greatly admire, Paul Lorenz:
Now his hands have vertical and lateral motion and his elbows fly way out. I think he does ski turning competitions so the elbows might be for "flair", to impress the judges. His knuckles like Dineen seem to pointed down the hill but there is a lot more motion. Now Dineen's compact motion is necessary for the ultra-tight turns; but even with the his variety of turn shapes, would Lorenz benefit from less hand motion?
Another skier I respect and study is Harald Harb. Harb's hand motion is more forward backward and up and down then Lorenz and Dineen. It seems to me that Harb bases most of his technique on the "Bullet Proof Turn" which focus' on a very light inside ski so that Harb is often in essence skiing with only the outside ski carving turns in the snow with his inside ski tipped but not really engaged in the snow.
Lorenz seems to ski with a pure carve engaging both skis tipped on edge respectively, using more of a race skiing edging technique and Dineen uses more of a windshield wiper technique. But what about the hands? Do their hands all end up in the same place; they just use different amounts of forward/aft, side-to side, up-and-down movement or are they fundamental to the type of turns they produce? I love the way Lorenz carves but I really like Dineen's soft, mostly still hands. Is that quiet type of hand movement of Dineen's compatible to GS style turns or modified to somewhere between Dineen/Lorenz or Dineen/Harb? Thanks in advance for any shared wisdom.

 

[James]

Not a whole lot of difference really. Lorenz and harb are skiing much further from the fall line with a much slower rate of turns. Lorenz's hands in bumps tend to fly out becuse it's planted on top of bump and he's skiing past it. Need somewhere for the parts to go. If Deneen did that he'd loose badly but he's skiing zipperline.

 

[Lauren]

 

[1chris5]

Not a whole lot of difference really. Lorenz and harb are skiing much further from the fall line with a much slower rate of turns. Lorenz's hands in bumps tend to fly out becuse it's planted on top of bump and he's skiing past it. Need somewhere for the parts to go. If Deneen did that he'd loose badly but he's skiing zipperline.

So point #1 would be: as a turn is farther from the fall line, the more actual hand movement is required for balance and counter-balance?
Would point #2 be the outside ski hand lifts higher proportionally to the inside ski hand the farther the turn is from the fall line?

 

[Nate Gardner]

I just try to keep my hands in my peripheral vision, especially my inside hand after the skis are coming out of the fall line. If I lose sight of that one, then I may be headed for rotating to upper body away from the next turn and allowing myself to fall in the back.
I think, instead of thinking of some contrived hand placement, think about where the upper body is facing and about where the pole is swinging. For example, I mostly look to have my centerline facing towards the apex of the next turn and then I swing my pole parallel to the line with, in most instances, actual pole touch not occurring till after i have changed edges.
If you feel you are making large arm movements to do this, instead of small wrist movement, and you are losing sight of both hands in the peripheral then you are likely dropping one or both hands.

 

[James]

Best to look at some examples.

:

Hands much too high!
Grip is all wrong. This is how 8 yr old girls often hold poles-more like suspend them from their hands. But!...All is not terrible. if you rotated forearms down almost 90 degrees, and gripped the pole properly, we'd be pretty good.

Pretty good, but hands too open, forearms pointed out too much. Bring hands in to grip pole and rotate forearms in a little. All that open position will tend to push you back onto heels. Come on, we're going downhill skiing, not like talking to Italians.

Not bad for zipperline. Lower forearms a few inches- well 4 in. Grip the pole properly. A loose grip is good, but not that loose. Thumb down! You only have two. You could break both like that.

This is close. More air between elbows and body will let hands go out a bit. Lower the hands a scoch. Relax the shoulders! Goodness, so much tension. Relax, skiing is supposed to be fun! This actually is too close to "dinosaur arms" which is a tense condition where elbows are glued to body and that contributes to full body rotation.

Okay, as goofy as this is, we could work with it. First, bring in the index fingers before they get broken in a fall. Elbows- a little too much air to body but at least they're not cramped. Like the neck. Come on, breathe a little. Maybe try some yoga to relax the neck?

Move elbows in a bit, drop forearms, rotate forearms in. Now the palms facing downhill- This can actually be beneficial to ward off rotating arms across the body. The so called Vampire move - like they're swinging their cloak across their face. Verb- Vampirating. (Let's hope this guy doesn't start that).

 

[James]

So point #1 would be: as a turn is farther from the fall line, the more actual hand movement is required for balance and counter-balance?
Would point #2 be the outside ski hand lifts higher proportionally to the inside ski hand the farther the turn is from the fall line?

The point would be in zipperline skiing you want minimal hand movements but especially minimal arm movements. No time and it can end up rotating your whole body if something goes awry.
I've found a loose grip on the pole really helps with this in moguls. Straps would be imporrant for that though. Tight grips tend to travel up the arm into the body and start causing arm movements you don't want.

When you go more out of fall line, as in "normal" skiing, your arms are going to be out more. If you start doing 40-50 mph gs turns the arms go out a little more. I guess we could say it's for balance. Just remember you're not planting a pole at speed. Sometimes it's a slight touch pole facing backwards.

Coming out of tuck, then hands back in to clear gate:

Bode, US Nationals DH 2005
photo Ron LeMaster

 

[1chris5]

I just try to keep my hands in my peripheral vision, especially my inside hand after the skis are coming out of the fall line. If I lose sight of that one, then I may be headed for rotating to upper body away from the next turn and allowing myself to fall in the back.
I think, instead of thinking of some contrived hand placement, think about where the upper body is facing and about where the pole is swinging. For example, I mostly look to have my centerline facing towards the apex of the next turn and then I swing my pole parallel to the line with, in most instances, actual pole touch not occurring till after i have changed edges.
If you feel you are making large arm movements to do this, instead of small wrist movement, and you are losing sight of both hands in the peripheral then you are likely dropping one or both hands.

Ok so your saying think upper body alignment and its relation to the turn. If it's a "zipper line" the body will be facing directly down the fall line but is it's gs then the body will be angled towards the apex of the next turn. Try to keep hands in peripheral vision. Got it - I think.

 

[1chris5]

Best to look at some examples.

:
View attachment 19853
Hands much too high!
Grip is all wrong. This is how 8 yr old girls often hold poles-more like suspend them from their hands. But!...All is not terrible. if you rotated forearms down almost 90 degrees, and gripped the pole properly, we'd be pretty good.

Pretty good, but hands too open, forearms pointed out too much. Bring hands in to grip pole and rotate forearms in a little. All that open position will tend to push you back onto heels. Come on, we're going downhill skiing, not like talking to Italians.

Not bad for zipperline. Lower forearms a few inches- well 4 in. Grip the pole properly. A loose grip is good, but not that loose. Thumb down! You only have two. You could break both like that.

This is close. More air between elbows and body will let hands go out a bit. Lower the hands a scoch. Relax the shoulders! Goodness, so much tension. Relax, skiing is supposed to be fun! This actually is too close to "dinosaur arms" which is a tense condition where elbows are glued to body and that contributes to full body rotation.

Okay, as goofy as this is, we could work with it. First, bring in the index fingers before they get broken in a fall. Elbows- a little too much air to body but at least they're not cramped. Like the neck. Come on, breathe a little. Maybe try some yoga to relax the neck?

Move elbows in a bit, drop forearms, rotate forearms in. Now the palms facing downhill- This can actually be beneficial to ward off rotating arms across the body. The so called Vampire move - like they're swinging their cloak across their face. Verb- Vampirating. (Let's hope this guy doesn't start that).

Dude - you're the best - this is hilarious but informative. As an aside, it is Trump talk 24/7 in my house. I love it.

 

[1chris5]

The point would be in zipperline skiing you want minimal hand movements but especially minimal arm movements. No time and it can end up rotating your whole body if something goes awry.
I've found a loose grip on the pole really helps with this in moguls. Straps would be imporrant for that though. Tight grips tend to travel up the arm into the body and start causing arm movements you don't want.

When you go more out of fall line, as in "normal" skiing, your arms are going to be out more. If you start doing 40-50 mph gs turns the arms go out a little more. I guess we could say it's for balance. Just remember you're not planting a pole at speed. Sometimes it's a slight touch pole facing backwards.

Coming out of tuck, then hands back in to clear gate:
View attachment 19857
Bode, US Nationals DH 2005
photo Ron LeMaster

Perfect explanation with great Bode Miller example. I really appreciate your fun but informative reply. I am going to take some time to process this before I start ripping pure carve turns with impeccable hand position on my next day out (Tuesday). Cheers

 

[skibob]

Best to look at some examples.

:
View attachment 19853
Hands much too high!
Grip is all wrong. This is how 8 yr old girls often hold poles-more like suspend them from their hands. But!...All is not terrible. if you rotated forearms down almost 90 degrees, and gripped the pole properly, we'd be pretty good.

Pretty good, but hands too open, forearms pointed out too much. Bring hands in to grip pole and rotate forearms in a little. All that open position will tend to push you back onto heels. Come on, we're going downhill skiing, not like talking to Italians.

Not bad for zipperline. Lower forearms a few inches- well 4 in. Grip the pole properly. A loose grip is good, but not that loose. Thumb down! You only have two. You could break both like that.

This is close. More air between elbows and body will let hands go out a bit. Lower the hands a scoch. Relax the shoulders! Goodness, so much tension. Relax, skiing is supposed to be fun! This actually is too close to "dinosaur arms" which is a tense condition where elbows are glued to body and that contributes to full body rotation.

Okay, as goofy as this is, we could work with it. First, bring in the index fingers before they get broken in a fall. Elbows- a little too much air to body but at least they're not cramped. Like the neck. Come on, breathe a little. Maybe try some yoga to relax the neck?

Move elbows in a bit, drop forearms, rotate forearms in. Now the palms facing downhill- This can actually be beneficial to ward off rotating arms across the body. The so called Vampire move - like they're swinging their cloak across their face. Verb- Vampirating. (Let's hope this guy doesn't start that).

First off, apologies to the OP. But I can't resist.

@James you obviously are a peddler of alternative facts. Disgusting.

Donald's technique is perfect. The best! Just like his electoral win. Yuuge! Or so that's what his people tell him. They even took a photo of him skiing for all of you whiny media types:

 

[Lauren]

They even took a photo of him skiing for all of you whiny media types:

Definitely photoshopped....

DT's hands aren't that big

 

[AmyPJ]

@James , hilarious!

 

[Josh Matta]

I do not think you should "put" your hand anywhere. Hands being in front to the sides and low is a constant movements of your hands. If you stop moving them they fall behind you or you look like a zombie ski instructor.

I think one thing to realize is pole touch and swing is just done with the wrist and proper pole strap usage is necessary to have any chance of separating your pole and wrist from the rest of your arms/upper body.

 

[Fuller]

Yesterday I was working on some chopped up terrain with a fairly steep pitch and I realized I was letting my inside hand, arm, shoulder drift back with the predictable results. I assumed the Zombie Student Skier position and things went better for the rest of the day. Not that it was pretty but it worked.

 

[Bad Bob]

If you can see your hands, not see your ski tips, and see where you are intending to go; you are probably doing something fairly right.

 

[1chris5]

I do not think you should "put" your hand anywhere. Hands being in front to the sides and low is a constant movements of your hands. If you stop moving them they fall behind you or you look like a zombie ski instructor.

I think one thing to realize is pole touch and swing is just done with the wrist and proper pole strap usage is necessary to have any chance of separating your pole and wrist from the rest of your arms/upper body.

Hi - what do you mean by 'proper pole strap usage'? I never wear my straps. FYI - I use super cheap Rossi stove pipe poles.

 

[skibob]

Hi - what do you mean by 'proper pole strap usage'? I never wear my straps. FYI - I use super cheap Rossi stove pipe poles.

He means that the proper pole movement means allowing the pole and fingers to flex forward away from the palm so that pole tip is pointing out ahead of you. Then coming back at about the same rate toward the palm of the hand. It can be done, at least to the extent that I understand @Josh Matta 's intent, without straps. But you are in danger of losing your grip on them if you do. The proper part of the strap is that its wrapped outwardly and then over the wrist.

See how this would allow your pole to spring forward and back and not impede movement? Although this is also proper technique:

 

[Bad Bob]

He means that the proper pole movement means allowing the pole and fingers to flex forward away from the palm so that pole tip is pointing out ahead of you. Then coming back at about the same rate toward the palm of the hand. It can be done, at least to the extent that I understand @Josh Matta 's intent, without straps. But you are in danger of losing your grip on them if you do. The proper part of the strap is that its wrapped outwardly and then over the wrist.

See how this would allow your pole to spring forward and back and not impede movement? Although this is also proper technique:

WOW! You use a glass, you are suave.

 

[1chris5]

He means that the proper pole movement means allowing the pole and fingers to flex forward away from the palm so that pole tip is pointing out ahead of you. Then coming back at about the same rate toward the palm of the hand. It can be done, at least to the extent that I understand @Josh Matta 's intent, without straps. But you are in danger of losing your grip on them if you do. The proper part of the strap is that its wrapped outwardly and then over the wrist.

See how this would allow your pole to spring forward and back and not impede movement? Although this is also proper technique:

Thanks - I'll try technique - well both techniques but sans glass.