FIS Pulls Aspen from World Cup Calendar Until Technical Aspects Are Addressed

[James]

I can say I've ridden the chair at Aspen, but not sure I skied the actual run they are talking about.
I can confidently say I've skied Birds of Prey at BC

You likely have been down the trail they have the women's gs and slalom on - Strawpile, if you went down to that Shadow Mt lift. Aka lift 1a

The downhill I guess starts at the top then goes down Aztec and Spring Pitch. Don't know if it finishes down Corkscrew or Strawpile.
From the 2015 Wcup:

From Team Captains Manual 2015
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/while-you-are-here/events/aspen-winternational/team-captains-info
Full map:
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/~/media/aspensnowmass/trail-maps/2015_aspen_mountain_sm.ashx

Some good videos on the racers/hill:
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/while-you-are-here/events/2017-audi-fis-world-cup-finals

Part of a Press release from June 2016:
--------------------------------
Atle Skårdal, FIS chief race director for the ladies’ Alpine World Cup

“There are just a lot of positive things to say about Aspen. As a race venue, we’ll have great, exciting races there. It used to be a classic downhill during the spring tour years back—we had great World Cup races there for men’s downhill back in the 80s and 90s, which I think was amazing. It will be good to see the men race on that hill again. We know that—in terms of technical events—they have all the necessary requirements which will also guarantee great tech events. They have done some small changes to the hill and start area so we can guarantee a very exciting team event in the lower section. We know that Aspen is quite stable weather-wise during springtime, so if we and the organizers and everyone involved get a little lucky and have this normal Aspen weather it will be kind of a festival week in Aspen with a lot of things going on and something we definitely look forward to. We will experience there something which is very exciting for the sport, and very memorable in terms of the event program they’re going to produce.”
----------------------
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/~/media/aspensnowmass/pdfs/2017/2017announcement.ashx?la=en

 

[Brian Finch]

I heard that Killington got it again?

K set new standard for access & services; athletes really liked the venue & the 2' ride from hotel to lift.

 

[Muleski]

Every time I check back in this thread has grown! Great one. And interesting.

I assume that the general situation is a bit more clear to folks four pages into it. There are a lot of things at play. I'm a heck of a lot more on top of this than a New England guy should be. I have friends and family who live there, and a couple who are very involved. There has been a political game of ping pong going on for some time about the development of Gorsuch Haus as the anchor for developing that side of Ajax. You have one group of people who strongly feel that it should be approved, and another other group who feel equally passionate about NOT having it built.

It's pretty unique to Aspen, and if you have not been there and are not familiar with the site, it can be confusing. Aspen Mountain, aka Ajax, is not a typical mountain, area, resort. It is literally right on the edge of the town {technically a city}. Very much like some European areas. I have family and friends who live a few blocks away. They walk 5 minutes to the Gondi, walk a few blocks in the other directions from home to grocery shop, grab a cup of coffee, to the bars, and great restaurants. It's just unique, and pretty special.

Newfydog is very much on point when it comes to FIS. These people show zero restraint in spending money, and like the fine life. Think about St. Moritz and many of the other regular stops on the tour. Aspen has tremendous history and tradition, it has awesome terrain, normally great weather, and both SkiCo and the AVSC know how to run a big event. No question. The "city" is an iconic ski town, and no lack of great food, great wine, and great parties. All FIS worthy. Very good airport right there. Able to handle a lot of jets.

Now, think about the issues that FIS has raised, as they are NOT new and they are, IMO, legitimate. The lift is now ancient. I think around 1970ish. It does not get a lot of use, and the business case to replace it is probably very debatable. However, if you are going to hold tech events on that hill, you need a lift. And frankly, you need a good and reliable one. That lift going down for any reason would be a real problem. This was first raised 10 years ago. Not new. If you are trying to run a race, streamed all over the world, you pretty much need a reliable lift.

This past week was a home run. Now it's muscle flexing time. I hope it all comes together.

It's unfortunate that the way the WC calendar works, the North American stuff needs to be early season. The whole tour has been loving the Squaw and Aspen stops. The weather, the snow, the works. Not that they were not surprised by the crowd at Killington.

 

[Muleski]

K set new standard for access & services; athletes really liked the venue & the 2' ride from hotel to lift.

I haven't been close enough to hear the feedback on that one, but it makes sense. The immediate thing that I heard abut was how cool the European girls thought the crowd was, and not just on the hill. I do know that there were four of the most powerful ski federations who almost forced the GS to be cancelled because of the surface, and have not let it go since. If Lara Gut had remained healthy and had lost the overall by less than 100 points......ouch.

I would love to see Killington host an event every year. I would love to see Aspen keep hosting as well. Might not be room for both. But, K did a great job. There are going to be weather issues anywhere in the world that time of year, I think. Hit or miss.

All good for the USA!

 

[Primoz]

Now, think about the issues that FIS has raised, as they are NOT new and they are, IMO, legitimate. The lift is now ancient. I think around 1970ish. It does not get a lot of use, and the business case to replace it is probably very debatable. However, if you are going to hold tech events on that hill, you need a lift. And frankly, you need a good and reliable one. That lift going down for any reason would be a real problem. This was first raised 10 years ago. Not new. If you are trying to run a race, streamed all over the world, you pretty much need a reliable lift.

It's not first place where they will need to change lift if they want to keep the races. Kranjska Gora was more or less forced to change newer then 45 years old lift for newer one if they wanted to keep race. Garmisch needed to change lift on Gudiberg if they wanted to keep World championships etc. As @Muleski wrote, there's so many things that depend on reliable lift nowadays you just can't afford to run WC race on hill with lift from 2nd world war. Just for example my not so nice experience from Garmisch finals, year before World championships were there. On Gudiberg, there was just one drag lift (no idea how it's called in English, but it was super slow, and only 1 person could board at the time... so not T-bar but that other one.. you know what I mean ), and on Saturday, there were men and women SL races. Even though there was only about 50 racers in total, it was huge chaos. Noone said beforehand who is allowed to be on lift and who is not, so on the end there was queue of 100+ people (racers, coaches, servicemen, photographers, TV guys, FIS officials, slippers, etc) waiting on bottom of lift with less then 45mins to start. You can imagine how stressful was for everyone as noone knew who will manage to top on time and who won't. On the end, it all went fine, even though I was waaaay too late to be on course when I should be (photographers need to be on position 60mins before first start), but noone really bothered to annoy me (and several others) because we were "late". As at that time Garmisch had a lot of issues with this if they will manage to change this lift or not until February when WCH would start, everyone were pretty scared how it will go next winter, when there would be few times more people on the hill. Luckily all went well and next season there was chairlift waiting for us, but it just proves today, with TV signal going around the world and with so strict timelines there's simply no way to afford such problems.

 

[Jack skis]

Little thread drift. Aspen losing World Cup races is not a good thing, but given the circumstances understandable. Of more concern to me are the unsettling developments in the Korean Peninsula and how they could mess up the next Olympics. Politics aside, if things go to hell in Korea what will become of the next Winter Olympics? Come to think of it, if things go to hell the Olympics will be of little importance.

 

[James]

On Gudiberg, there was just one drag lift (no idea how it's called in English, but it was super slow, and only 1 person could board at the time... so not T-bar but that other one.. you know what I mean ),

In the US we call it a "Poma lift". Ir really just "Poma". The Brits call it a "Button lift". Never could find out how the French distinguish a t-bar from a button. Both are "tire fesse" (butt pull) afaik.

Poma

T-Bar

Never even seen this, but it's a called "J-bar" here.

Some in Scandanavia call this an "Anchor lift" in English. Afaik, no one here distinguishes between reel or pole t-bars and pomas.

 

[mdf]

No Poma pictures?
I have skied a J-bar somewhere. Maybe Greek Peek in the 1970s?

 

[James]

No Poma pictures?
I have skied a J-bar somewhere. Maybe Greek Peek in the 1970s?

Yes I added one. The first got rejected or else I forgot after finding it... posting on a large postage stamp known as a phone can be tough.

Yeah it's weird, never been to a place with a j-bar.

 

[fatbob]

In the US we call it a "Poma lift". Ir really just "Poma". The Brits call it a "Button lift". Never could find out how the French distinguish a t-bar from a button. Both are "tire fesse" (butt pull) afaik.

Arse platter or Bawbag squeezer also acceptable in (colloquial) British English

 

[fatbob]

I guess for completeness we ought to have

The simple rope tow (Glove burner)

The cable with curved handles

The NZ nutcracker

The Roca Jack slingshot

 

[Muleski]

Serious thread drift.

A Poma, of platter can be a very efficient lift for a race venue. The are very inexpensive to get up and running, easy to maintain, etc. Actually have been involved in a couple of projects where they might go that route to be able to do quick laps of a race hill.

J bars do still exist in New England. Either at tiny local hills, or as a small learning section of slightly bigger spots. Burke still has one, as does Suicide Six. The area where I learned to ski as a toddler had one. And a sweet rope tow.

Back to Aspen. Think this is heating up, again.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Back to Aspen. Think this is heating up, again.

Yup - it's heating up, for sure.

I know that FIS likes its creature comforts - not only for its board members, but for the spectators, sponsors, and broadcasters. Aspen has a lot going for it, but the liabilities of the lift (course maintenance and course access), the base area (for spectators, media, sponsors), and the other infra (using a decommissioned restaurant with very little in the way of sprucing up isn't a long-term solution) are huge deals.

And as Aspen is a legacy site with plenty of cash on hand, the FIS is exerting pressure where it can.

Sure, you can argue that Birds of Prey is an odd comparison. Yes, the new Red Tail Camp is great, but said lodge isn't typically accessible once the snow starts flying: you need to get there either on skis or via a shuttle bus. But the place is designed around modern media needs, with modern safety infrastructure in place, high altitude (which usually guarantees passing snow control in mid-November), and the works.

But Killington and Squaw? Both rolled out the red carpet and put on a great show. Both upped their infrastructure game, showed their best sides despite weather challenges, and impressed all of the key players in the FIS Alpine World Cup system. In the past, the same could be said for Park City and Snowbasin, though both have been shelved since the 2002 Winter Olympics (each could be resurrected without too much trouble).

And if you look at other U.S. venues, there are moves being made to attract World Cup events and the like. Look at Sugarloaf's new Competition Center building, which is a beauty and can handle major media presence (and Narrow Gauge is homologated for all four events). Whiteface would need upgrades, but it's nothing that NYSSRA hasn't considered (the main stumbling block being that Whiteface is owned by the state, so any infra improvements require legislative support). Looking west, there's Copper Mountain, Mammoth, Sun Valley... and possibly others that could host great World Cup events, given some advance planning.

Canada is also loaded with potential venues: Whistler, Sunshine Village, Nakiska, Mont Tremblant, to name but a few.

And you know that these other venues are salivating at the opportunity to host World Cup races in the next few seasons.

I'm sure that higher-ups in USSA are working feverishly to try and get Ski Corp the resources and leverage they need to advance the capital improvements at Ajax. While there are options to homologate trails at Snowmass or Highlands, both have big issues in terms of access for spectators and media (especially Highlands). And FIS homologation takes time and money, especially in the U.S. where there are few qualified to perform the certification.

Stay tuned, this is far from over just yet....

 

[Brian Finch]

I'd personally love to see Aspen lose the event; they're are so many other areas without the smug factor that would be more accessible to average skiers.

#MakeSkiingGreatAgain

 

[Rudi Riet]

The downhill I guess starts at the top then goes down Aztec and Spring Pitch. Don't know if it finishes down Corkscrew or Strawpile.
From the 2015 Wcup:
View attachment 21419
From Team Captains Manual 2015
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/while-you-are-here/events/aspen-winternational/team-captains-info
Full map:
https://www.aspensnowmass.com/~/media/aspensnowmass/trail-maps/2015_aspen_mountain_sm.ashx

The World Cups don't finish on Strawpile, but on Lower Norway. That way, they're not dealing with the lift infrastructure as an obstacle. The diagram above is a little simple (on purpose, I'm sure), but the finish area is to skier's left of the lift base.

Frankly, the whole Ruthie's/Aztec/Strawpile/Norway side is underrated. Yes, it's used a lot by AVSC for training (Norway and Strawpile), so it isn't as attractive to the public. But if it's groomed, the cruise down the DH/SG right-of-way is a blast! Dropping into Aztec/Spring Pitch is a lot of fun: not quite as much of a mind blower as The Brink at Beaver Creek, but still quite the drop-off at speed.

--------

Another venue I didn't mention in my previous post is the new Mittersill area at Cannon Mountain. Taft Training is homologated for FIS elite slalom, and Baron's Run is homologated for GS at the Nor-Am and World Cup levels, and it's a seriously great GS trail. The infrastructure installed there over the past two years is impressive (new lift, trail widening, new-tech HKD snowmaking system top-to-bottom, all financed by the U.S. Ski Team, Franconia Ski Club, and Holderness School), and they just pulled off a great show at NCAA Championships. Sure, there are some limitations right now at the base (no new buildings just yet due to water rights issues with the town of Franconia) and at the top of Baron's (which abuts a protected bird habitat, as well as the fact that the whole resort is in NH State Park land), but it's nothing that won't stand in the way if the FIS wants to hold a World Cup on this new hill. And it's accessible, just off of I-93, with a lot of lodging nearby in Franconia, Littleton, and Lincoln.

 

[Rudi Riet]

A Poma, of platter can be a very efficient lift for a race venue. The are very inexpensive to get up and running, easy to maintain, etc. Actually have been involved in a couple of projects where they might go that route to be able to do quick laps of a race hill.

Surface lifts have a place, for sure. Look at Mittersill: the Taft Training venue has a brand new T-bar serving it. Athletes can turn laps on that hill very quickly and efficiently. And surface lifts aren't as affected by weather (an issue at Cannon, which sees its fair share of whiteouts and wind holds).

Frankly, I was blown away by the quality of the Mittersill facilities. The Taft area is capable of holding 4 or 5 slalom gate sets simultaneously, or possibly 2 or 3 GS sets. Its T-bar is the perfect lift to serve the venue: low maintenance, simple, efficient. And Baron's is served by a tried-and-true fixed-grip double (also brand new stock from Doppelmayr/CTEC) that is low enough to the ground that it won't be affected by wind hold, simple and solid. (It's also important to note that Cannon wasn't allowed to put in a lift that took up any more footprint than the previously-installed double from decades ago when they rehabilitated Mittersill, so they went with the latest iteration of the same hardware).

Once some of the remaining infra issues are resolved, I anticipate the World Cup finding its way to Mittersill during an east coast swing. It's that kind of hill, very special.

 

[Tricia]

Now, think about the issues that FIS has raised, as they are NOT new and they are, IMO, legitimate. The lift is now ancient. I think around 1970ish. It does not get a lot of use, and the business case to replace it is probably very debatable. However, if you are going to hold tech events on that hill, you need a lift. And frankly, you need a good and reliable one. That lift going down for any reason would be a real problem. This was first raised 10 years ago. Not new. If you are trying to run a race, streamed all over the world, you pretty much need a reliable lift.

While reading the news stories about this topic and seeing some of the development plans, realizing that SkiCo announced that they were pulling back from the plans to develop in an article last August (2016) I can see a couple things in play.
FIS realized that there was too much going on too make the development happen. Development that was promised for several years.
SkiCo realized that they needed to make the improvements and were tired of the logger head from the town of Aspen and Gorsuch. Making their announcement last August put some things into play that 'could' force the hand of others involved in order to get the WC back.

Stay tuned, this is far from over just yet....

 

[James]

Another venue I didn't mention in my previous post is the new Mittersill area at Cannon Mountain. Taft Training is homologated for FIS elite slalom, and Baron's Run is homologated for GS at the Nor-Am and World Cup levels, and it's a seriously great GS trail. The infrastructure installed there over the past two years is impressive (new lift, trail widening, new-tech HKD snowmaking system top-to-bottom, all financed by the U.S. Ski Team, Franconia Ski Club, and Holderness School), and they just pulled off a great show at NCAA Championships. Sure, there are some limitations right now at the base (no new buildings just yet due to water rights issues with the town of Franconia) and at the top of Baron's (which abuts a protected bird habitat, as well as the fact that the whole resort is in NH State Park land), but it's nothing that won't stand in the way if the FIS wants to hold a World Cup on this new hill. And it's accessible, just off of I-93, with a lot of lodging nearby in Franconia, Littleton, and Lincoln.

Great to hear about Mittersill! Do you know if the t-bar is self loading? Fairly common in Europe for Poma lifts. Last one I saw there's a stoplight and whentit turns green you go. As you move the wand by going it loads the next pole. Never seen a self loading t-bar though. Surface lifts are great when it's appropriate. If it breaks you just ski away, infinite mid-stations, less wind etc.
Obviously they wouldn't work for Aspen in this usage.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Great to hear about Mittersill! Do you know if the t-bar is self loading? Fairly common in Europe for Poma lifts. Last one I saw there's a stoplight and whentit turns green you go. As you move the wand by going it loads the next pole. Never seen a self loading t-bar though. Surface lifts are great when it's appropriate. If it breaks you just ski away, infinite mid-stations, less wind etc.

The T-bar at Mittersill is not self-loading, as the bars don't detach from the rope like many poma/button lifts do. Not that it couldn't be self-loading, but I think that the liability insurance of the resort limits the freedom to do self-load on a T-bar. Still, it doesn't require a lot of lift crew to pull off, and I'm sure that FSC members could get trained in how to properly run the lift.

Speaking of the convenience of self-evacuation, that became the case this past Saturday, when the whole mountain lost power due to a blown transformer in Franconia. Folks were stuck on the chairlifts and tram for over 90 minutes during the outage, while the T-bar folks just... skied away and down the hill.

 

[Muleski]

Agree with @Rudi Riet's comments and opinion of Mittersill. When this was first announced, I was a real skeptic. First, I have the opinion that the USSA/USST gets a bit carried away with their various endorsementts and certifications.

Second, I had a hard time seeing how this partnership would gel. The state of New Hampshire, the non profit FSC, and Holderness {a very traditional NE prep school with a great ski history, ski programs, and deep pockets.} Oh, yeah and the USSA. Add to it that you have some other major ski programs within an hour.

However, when I saw the plans, and talked to people, I certainly bought into the bigger vision and the terrain. A lot of well known ski families and foundations have donated to the effort to do it right.

One of the shortcomings of most of the US is that our trails are very unlike what our kids see and ski when they first complete in Europe. In fact when most Western kids first head East, they are surprised that things are not as wide open, and the trails often have a lot of varied terrain. When the see their first race hills in Europe, whole new world at many.

Mittersill's two training trails have IT ALL. I was there very recently for the NCAA's, hosted by UNH, who now train and host their carnival there. It really shows how you can pretty much purpose build something like this. There are not many places where you can have so many people training on the hill at once, as Rudi points out.

In the case of Holderness, this allows their kids to get in more training volume in less time, by lapping the hill. No excess distance or lift time.
Same for FSC, obviously. Holderness is trying to maintain their niche as a rigorous prep school with very broad programming....while offering elite ski opportunities. This is how huge.

When you have somebody managing the venue who knows what they are doing {which they do.....} the "hill boss" can work to fit in a lot of teams. Similar courses all set in parallel. Just as you see in other somewhat similar venues.

They have two new lifts, new state of the art snowmaking, the works. What I hear over and over again is that you can accomplish an awful lot in a short amount of time.

And the terrain? Outstanding. Baron's was was described to me by one of the ringleaders as a trail that "just keeps coming at you." I have also spoken to a couple of coaches who say that they can do almost anything by varying the set. It had good pitches, rolling terrain, etc., and it had a great flat at the bottom. That last piece is essential. All you need to watch is MS transition from steeps to flats..and accelerate, to see that. Or watch a GS like Soelden.

Back to the topic of lifts. For this kind of purpose, surface lifts work exceptionally well. They are also realtively inexpensive to install and operate and easy to maintain. Kind of surprised that they went with a T-bar rather than a Poma. A number of places are considering a race venue Poma. You can install a pretty long Poma for well under $1Mil.

The infrastructure to get to be a permanent stop on the WC is pretty huge. Mittersill may get there. One thing is a sure thing. They are going to host a lot of god racing, and will be a frequent training venue for teams on the road. Pretty neat....seeing as the place was shuttered and idle for so many years!