Females in the Fall Line - a Ski Racing article

[hbear]

I'm not sure the talk about LV and Mikaela have anything to do with their gender....but instead everything to do with the fact they are winners.
If USSA had men dominating the podium or winning crystal globes I'm sure we would be hearing plenty about it. If a male skier was vying for the all time win record like LV is doing, no doubt there would be significant media attention (maybe more?). Just going off memory, but pretty sure we heard more about Bode in 2008 than Lindsey even through they both won world titles. Honestly as a Canadian I didn't know who Lindsey was until she won in Vancouver.....I did however know who Bode Miller was and I wasn't even involved in ski racing at that time.

I will say it appears prize money between men and women is pretty even. I haven't looked into the details but assume any differences are a function of how many events one races (and getting paid out in prize money for placing well). This I see is very different than almost all other sports with the men getting paid more than the women. (e.g. track, golf, tennis, never mind team sports which are even worse).

So perhaps that is one of the benefits of Ski racing, equal (or mostly equal) access to prize money.

 

[markojp]

Does ski racing have any more or different benefits for women than other athletics in general?

Dunno. I'd ask, what do you get out of tennis vs. soccer. Competition (the key word here) certainly pushes everyone to and past personally perceived limits. For some, a little is enough. For others, it's all consuming for both better and worse. I skied with a woman the other day who just passed her L3 after only 4 years in PSIA. Race background both USSA and NCAA... she ripped. I imagine her exam a couple of weeks ago looked like someone brought an Uzi to a knife fight. Arguably, her race experience has allowed her to successfully pursue skiing and teaching goals with a razor focus. We were partners for half a day during a full day of clinicing... great great great to work with! When working with racers who've had enough and just want to ski, what I've noticed and enjoyed is that they're very coachable, inquisitive, and will ask 'why'. Love it!

 

[markojp]

So perhaps that is one of the benefits of Ski racing, equal (or mostly equal) access to prize money.

Speaking only of prize money totals this season, MS (597'692.00 CHF) out earned Marcel (528'878.66 CHF).

More women broke the 100k CHF then men, but maybe endorsements/sponsorship $$$ may well skew toward the men? It's be interesting to know what Marcel and MS's Atomic contracts are worth.

https://data.fis-ski.com/alpine-skiing/prize-money-ranking.html

 

[Tony S]

Does ski racing have any more or different benefits for women than other athletics in general?

This isn't an answer, just a prompt. I think there's something in there about speed and about risk-taking, that girls historically have not been as exposed to in the course of childhood play. You mentioned downhill MTB, which certainly has those things. But - epic's daughter not withstanding - that's significantly less mainstream even than skiing, no?

I know all the instructors will hit me on the head with big inflatable mallets (again) when I say this (again), but I do seem to notice an awful lot of women who are just SO timid about even the most modest of speeds that I worry that they're just never going to feel what it's like to bend a ski.

 

[markojp]

If you'd have been with us the past three days at mission ridge, you'd have seen some ripp'in good female ski bending going on!

 

[hbear]

Speaking only of prize money totals this season, MS (597'692.00 CHF) out earned Marcel (528'878.66 CHF).

More women broke the 100k CHF then men, but maybe endorsements/sponsorship $$$ may well skew toward the men? It's be interesting to know what Marcel and MS's Atomic contracts are worth.

https://data.fis-ski.com/alpine-skiing/prize-money-ranking.html

That's what I mean it's super interesting to see. Even back in 2012 and 2013 the top woman (Maze and LV) outearned the men in prize money. From 2014 until now the top man earned more (but always close). Without going through the data in detail my gut tells me the prize money is similar and whether the top women outearn the top men is likely a function of how dominant they are that year. E.g. Marcel is pretty much a tech only racer and there is no dominant male speed skier to sweep the other events. While typically the top earning female will run GS, SG, DH and combined. So perhaps a function of more events they compete in to earn prize money? Of course this year had Mikaela winning the top spot as tech racer, however I'd say we saw an abnormally weak field on the women's side that might've spread the prize money among the rest vs. having a Vonn or Maze run the tables in the speed events. (and picking off a bunch of GS while they are at it)

From what I see alpine ski racing just might be one of the most equal sports when it comes to prize money between genders. I could be completely off base but from a cursory look it certainly seems that way.

Edit: Just did a quick sum of all the earnings and the men competed for 4.577MM CHF total prize money while the women competed for 4.462MM CHF. So pretty darn equal prize money if you ask me.

 

[SBrown]

Dunno. I'd ask, what do you get out of tennis vs. soccer. Competition (the key word here) certainly pushes everyone to and past personally perceived limits. For some, a little is enough. For others, it's all consuming for both better and worse. I skied with a woman the other day who just passed her L3 after only 4 years in PSIA. Race background both USSA and NCAA... she ripped. I imagine her exam a couple of weeks ago looked like someone brought an Uzi to a knife fight. Arguably, her race experience has allowed her to successfully pursue skiing and teaching goals with a razor focus. We were partners for half a day during a full day of clinicing... great great great to work with! When working with racers who've had enough and just want to ski, what I've noticed and enjoyed is that they're very coachable, inquisitive, and will ask 'why'. Love it!

Well, that was kind of my thought. I think girls competing in athletics is about the best thing ever, of course. The tone of the article was a little bit, I don't know, ski-racing-is-extra-special, so I was curious about that. Maybe it is. I never did it. It costs more than soccer, that's for sure.

I know over on Ski Diva, we've had discussions about females and competition. There are all sorts of studies pointing out how many girls quit sports at age 12 or 13 ish, and also how those who continue past then end up with higher self esteem, better grades, fewer pregnancies, whatever metric you want to use. On its face, that seems obvious. But I'm also curious whether those girls were already on that track, and that's why they kept playing sports in high school. Does sports create that personality or reveal it? I mean, I already had good grades and self confidence before I was in sports, and maybe that's why I kept playing sports. Which is the chicken, which is the egg?

DH interviews people for a living, and yes, candidates who were high achievers in athletics are almost always very desirable. He doesn't really notice that there is a difference between sports, though. I mean, excelling at tiddlywinks takes something, too....

 

[Swede]

Ok I'm not trying to be obtuse, but how is this different from track and field? Swimming?

The difference ... watch a 12-year old girl dash 100 m, crawl 50 m in a pool or ... blast past you in 90 km/h on her 185 cm SG skis.

 

[SBrown]

The difference ... watch a 12-year old girl dash 100 m, crawl 50 m in a pool or ... blast past you in 90 km/h on her 185 cm SG skis.

Again, eye of beholder. I can relate to the skiing, not so much the swimming. I swim, but slooooowly. So that's impressive to me.

 

[Swede]

Nah, I'm completely objective.

 

[UGASkiDawg]

I've always been completely honest about why my kids ski race. So I never had to sit at a soccer or softball field and watch kids play a game. I can barely watch pros play those sports so there was no chance I could pretend to be interested is children playing. Ski racing is great, I get to go to different resorts and mostly ski all day. I know roughly when my kid will run so I can show for 15 minutes and watch her and then get on with my day. It's all about me and always will be. As they've gotten older, I enjoy watching some of the top girls run as well as my kids but since I don't have boys, I never watch the boys run.


I think ski racing is very different from track ,swimming and tennis. All of those sport are played on what are generally the same playing field. One track is is basically the same as another track, one hard court is basically the same as another hard court ,etc. Other than having gates, all races are different and the conditions quite often change radically from the 1st skier to last. The course gets rougher and tougher the more skiers that go down it . Every ski racer starts with the same 999 points and starts from the back of the field and has to fight both the better skiers and worse course conditions to reduce their points. It's brutally competitive and the speed events are pretty dangerous and yet these kids show up and try to hurl themselves down (generally) worsening course conditions to move up the rankings. It's a sport where you not only have to have a huge amount of skill but you have fight down fear always.....which tennis player or trackster is worried about taking a fall at 60mph. I realize I'm biased because my kids ski race but I've been a sports fan all my life of a variety of sports and there is NO tougher sport. There a few that may be as tough but nothing tougher. I respect the skill involved in all sports even table tennis but toughness, ski racers have that in spades and there is nothing in this world that will serve you better in life than toughness....imho!

 

[hbear]

Certainly biased as we are a race family, but believe it or not those gymnasts are tough as nails.....and considering the women are competing at the biggest stage when they are 16 with composure, poise and excellence is nothing short of amazing. Agree ski racing is a tough sport (I'd say it's brutal given the margin for error and how one mistake can easily cost one many placings or potential injury) But don't count out gymnastics for toughness, those kids go through hell in training to make it look so effortless. And to deal with the pressures of competing at literally the highest level at such a young age is a huge ask as well.

I've dealt with many an athlete in my day and by far those gymnasts are one of the toughest in my experience (both physically and mentally).

 

[SBrown]

The flip side of toughness is, Well, maybe you're just plain crazy.

 

[ADKmel]

Interesting thread. I agree w/many comments here. did sports create the athlete or was the athlete there just needing to be nurtured? Skiing I think is scary vs tennis. falling at 60mph vs falling on a tennis court, sure both can break bones but to me skiing is scarier..

To be any sort of athlete you need family support & $$. (lots of $$ for alpine skiing). you personally must have the competitive spirit and the physical capabilities for what ever sport to excel must be able to handle loss, injury, kids being mean, mental and physical fitness must come before partying or anything else. You give up a lot of your life to train to be a great athlete year round.

I think it's great that there are so many women Athlete's in all sports that "have made it". All the press and encouragement about successful women is superb! I think because society as a whole thinks women are 'weaker" (dick and jane books brainwashed many IMHO) when these awesome women win I'm glad the press does jump up and down. there have been some match ups w/women against men in golf, tennis... just saw a girl made it to a college Football team.. many girls on boys soccer teams but usually there is no girls team and Hat's off to the girls not afraid to compete w/the boys!

As for skiing..I think it helps growing up in a skiing family, having a ski team a Mt or school along w/ a Ski area that supports racing. (& a school that supports what ever sport) My high school still has a girls and boys ski team everyone trains together and do train for races competing against each other. Any sport that you compete w/better players will make you a better athlete. My Mt. does have a racing program and we still start kids out really early racing- 4-6yr and up boys and girls compete against each other. My niece raced and did very well was Olympic/world class caliber but when one of her friends crashed and was paralyzed she decided she would go to college and stopped competition deciding one can make more $$ with their brains than via skiing. yes It is very tough to be a "world class" Athlete like LV & MS. or in any other sport. Lindsay is incredible to have crashed and returned to WIN.

Maybe it's parts of the country that treat boy/girl training together differently? Around me, No one bats an eye when girls ski w/boys and when girls beat the boys especially in skiing. I raced in high school and college on the boy's men's team because I did beat the boys in the trials. (thanks title 9) I excelled at classic XC skiing and beat a lot of guys. Only in college did the 'boys' get really pissed off when I beat them. One even thought I should be DSQ'd because I was a girl when I came in 2nd at Mt Vanhovenburg Jr College Nationals. I wasn't DSQ'd but got a ton of press even the NY Times wrote about my feat. So yes the press does like it when girls beat boys even in 1970's

And I never would have known that "fart's can be lit" if I hadn't been traveling w/the boys team! LOL I still chuckle wondering how the coach explained the boy's burnt butt to the his parents! I don't think a girls team would have thought that one up...

 

[SBrown]

Is there a sport when boys and girls don't train together at some point? (Besides football and baseball and sports that don't have counterparts.) I think it's great, too. High-level girls don't have anywhere else to go, really, when they need better competition.

My son's soccer team got trounced in some scrimmages against a girls team back when they were 13, 14 or so. This particular girls team was phenomenal, won several national titles over the years and put a few kids in the national team pool. Pretty much all of them are D1 successes now. I think it can be a touch awkward for the boys in a contact sport, though, especially when the girls can take you apart on skill. In a real game, the boys would be able to, uh, show a more physical presence.

Are there still boys who don't believe that they can be beaten by certain females, though? That seems archaic and somewhat ignorant. I mean, Vonn won't beat Svindal, but she'll beat 99.9% of other skiers. This isn't a secret anymore.

 

[Tricia]

I'm not sure the talk about LV and Mikaela have anything to do with their gender....but instead everything to do with the fact they are winners.

Exactly!!!
It just so happens that we're talking more about women because they're awesome

 

[Swede]

Is there a sport when boys and girls don't train together at some point? (Besides football and baseball and sports that don't have counterparts.) I think it's great, too. High-level girls don't have anywhere else to go, really, when they need better competition.

My son's soccer team got trounced in some scrimmages against a girls team back when they were 13, 14 or so. This particular girls team was phenomenal, won several national titles over the years and put a few kids in the national team pool. Pretty much all of them are D1 successes now. I think it can be a touch awkward for the boys in a contact sport, though, especially when the girls can take you apart on skill. In a real game, the boys would be able to, uh, show a more physical presence.

Are there still boys who don't believe that they can be beaten by certain females, though? That seems archaic and somewhat ignorant. I mean, Vonn won't beat Svindal, but she'll beat 99.9% of other skiers. This isn't a secret anymore.

Spot on. But for me it's not so much about high-level girls.
I have two girls. And having lived in both the US and Europe inme it's still surprisingly archaic in places. We've been through a number of sports and activities with our kids and -- boys and girls are separated from pretty early on in most (not all of course). In ski racing they're a team through U16 with a lot of travel and camps -- more so than in other activities we have been involved in. Our experience is that besides the normal ups of an individual sport, it has also been a great activity from a group dynamic perspective. And the gender mix in the teen years has been a strong contributor. This is our experience. In other clubs, for other individuals it may differ.