EpicSki--A Eulogy

[SkiNurse]

A lot of people went to PugSki initially out of loyally to Phil and Tricia, but stayed for the quality of the content and community..

There needs to be a mix of all user types to keep this site going and I think it'll do fine. The newer skiers help keep the oldster's knowledge fresh. But the oldsters have to remember they didn't come out of the womb with skis on; they all started somewhere and had questions.

I don't know @Tyler Wenzel, but I give him a lot of credit for re-posting his final thoughts here and I found it well written. There are a lot of current Pugski and former Epic members that might appreciate the eulogy and could see it as an olive branch, of sorts. I was less than an infrequent poster at Epic, but made many friends through there. I thank Epicski for what it has contributed to the skier community over the years..and, believe me, I have enjoyed the stories!

 

[kitchener]

Wikia pulled the plug because they're not supporting the Huddler platform.
MNC made a decision to not migrate to another platform...
QUOTE]

This was my understanding, as well.

 

[Steve]

The reason that epic content went downhill is very simple, many of the best posters left to come over here. Nothing that moderators or admins did.

 

[markojp]

The reason that epic content went downhill is very simple, many of the best posters left to come over here. Nothing that moderators or admins did.

I'd argue that it's what the mods and admin DIDN'T do that drove many to leave. "It's all good".... 'cept it isn't.

 

[Mendieta]

Folks, I feel like it is ok to have a proper Eulogy of Epic, and this thread could be a good place for this. It is reasonable, since many of us come from there (even though I only participated a little in it).

Ultimately, who we are are and what we do is in part a result of who we were and what we did. So, there is that connection with Epic. But I feel like it's important to stress that PugSki is not a continuation of Epic. We were not competing with it, either. We decided to build a different approach to ski forums, with an emphasis on post quality and respect for each other.

This is not better, or worse, than Epic. It is an evolution, for many of us. But it's also an evolution of other things we did in previous walks of life. So, let's us all, whether we just moved into the Pugski family or we did before, let's all keep it focused on our collective goals. Please keep this thread civil and friendly, and as a place to remember the nice things that Epic brought us.

I, for one, am very grateful for the countless hours many of you put in Epic, and other forums like SkiDiva, etc. Sincere thanks for that. We wouldn't be who we are without all of that. And I would be an even more mediocre skier, even when that's hard to believe. Thanks, in particular, to @Tyler Wenzel , who also started this thread. And of course, the list is huge.

In short, it is sad to see Epic go, it really is, so let's have a positive Eulogy.

 

[cantunamunch]

The reason that epic content went downhill is very simple, many of the best posters left to come over here. Nothing that moderators or admins did.

Granting this, is it a cause or an effect of other causes?

IMO Growth is all very good - but what's the point? It dilutes reviews into aggregate mish-mash, it dilutes audience for technical material to no better than shouting in a liftline, it dilutes technique debate into internet trolling gambits and no one can have a useful take-away... who would want to stay and post and why should they feel vested there instead of anywhere else?

If one venue is just as good as anywhere else - why invest in any given one?

In short, it is sad to see Epic go, it really is, so let's have a positive Eulogy.

You're probably right, sorry.

 

[Willy]

I would only want to say that Epic is apparently already finished. I tried to log on there with "Disallowed Key Characters" being the only message that appeared. So, I want to extend my thanks to Tyler for taking on an impossible task. After nolo's departure, Phil and Tricia took over at EpicSki and worked to enhance it and make it better. Their continued involvement, gear reviews, conversation starters is what helped build the culture that was successful up until their untimely departure. With that, and the launch here, a lot of disgruntled poster migrated here and helped in the building of this community. No hit on Tyler but the culture disappeared as P&T were very much part of the culture. The longer-term posters and contributors there followed the culture that they also helped to build leaving Tyler to oversee what was left. As site admin, what else was he to do?

Epicski was sentenced to death with the departure of P&T and the culture they led. I know personally that I was turned off by what happened there. It wasn't just the departure of community but the turn-away of content providers. Starting with nolo, we had a supporter page for Peak Travel that was a repository for our video stories we were producing. I put out a good number of trip reports and was hoping to add to the stoke. After P&T left, it seemingly lost its purpose. Add to it that under the new model, Huddler wouldn't allow us our page anymore unless we paid as advertisers. As the social media input was my doing, and I wasn't being paid to do it, there was no way I was going to pay nor would I willingly contribute under the new regime. This wasn't Tyler's fault, it was MNC and/or Huddler that made the edict. The shows we did/do (I retired out of the filming) were for television syndication, not social networking so whatever was posted wasn't an income stream. Again, I was doing it to provide content to the site, not for a paycheck. With that, and I'm sure others were subjected to similar treatment, new content and contribution was lost.

Tyler, thank you for your efforts but you were dealt a losing hand. Phil and Tricia, thanks for taking the risk of starting a new site, a new community with a clear vision of what you want Pugski to be. Thanks also to those who have contributed over the years and for helping to try and build the sport we all have passion for. This is a labor of love, not money that drives this community. For it to be lost over time is to lose skiing over time and that's not an acceptable conclusion. Keep up the good work.

Edit: I just removed my Epic bookmark on the bar and moved Pugski into its place. I guess it's done...

 

[markojp]

What follows is a repost of my final thoughts on EpicSki.

The ski industry is slowly dying, hopefully something will be done about that.

Personally I don't care for the (being frank here) aggressive, unwelcoming to recreationalists, insider culture there. I know from private conversations I'm not alone, perhaps not even in the minority in that opinion.

First one.... the industry is changing. 'Dying' is a little melodramatic and certainly isn't indicative of what's happening in our region with the explosion of population/transplants/ immigrants that are relatively well paid and want to recreate. In short, the industry (like most all else in the world) is undergoing a profound reinvention.

Second one.. Tyler, true, there are a few handfuls of people either in or on the fringe of the industry and some very passionate non-industry folks that really know their stuff (many, former epic posters), but I haven't seen anything similar in tone to a few of the posters on your site and their general disdain for anyone or anything beyond the myopic bubble of their personal experience. That said, you did make a concerted effort to reign some of those folks in, and yes, that made things more user friendly for the more casual skier. Unforunately, lack of moderation at a critical juncture to drive hits and clicks driven by folks watching a food fight drove your most valuable contributors away. But from what you've just shared, it seems that was fine and the numbers proved this. Certainly nerves are raw, but Pugski isn't the root of epic's demise. Neither are you. There's no need to throw anyone under the bus. Time to celebrate the best of what was and hope that Phil and Trish will continue to keep things well moderated here. Best to you.

 

[Tyler Wenzel]

Epic will be online until May 12th. There's just a tech glitch right now that's being worked out.

 

[Sibhusky]

We made EpicSki even more friendly to casual skiers than it was previously. You have your take, I have hard numbers. The site grew faster and more significantly with that focus than it ever did with a culture that wasn't welcoming to answering "silly questions". There was still a mix of discussions at a higher level, it just shifted from making it seem like if you're not on that high level you don't really belong there (which is my impression of how the community here is presently) to one where skiers of all knowledge and ability levels were welcome to post without being harassed.

Again Phil and Tricia made awesome content, but a successful forum is a business game. As my dad who I mentioned above also always tells people who want to become a photographer: "Taking good pictures is only 10% of what you need to do to make a success in the industry." You can create great content, but that doesn't make it have a wide enough appeal to make a successful business. I started paying close attention to stats and trends when I was managing the featured items. Things like ski reviews while great content just weren't as attractive to the audience as things like the pictorial articles, discussions about weather, and trip reports. One of the most upvoted and viewed trip reports on Epic this past year was a few intermediate skiers posting about their trip. The things you and a lot of people on here find most interesting are over the head of 90% of the skiers. I'm not running this show, the owners here will have to decide how much they shift to appeal to that other 90%, but don't fall to the hubris that just because y'all are smart about skiing means that you'll have a successful ski forum, especially if you ignore the hard numbers of it.

As to the Unofficial Guide thing, again you're missing the point. There's a reason why I pointed them to that guide and not Sibhusky's full blown website of a WMR guide or Bob Peter's epic-length Jackson Hole guide. I wrote the Bretton Woods guide specifically as a model for people to follow for writing their own guides. If I presented one of the two Guides you mentioned most users would've found the task too daunting. Simply put I used mine as the example not because I felt it was one of the best guides (it wasn't), but rather because it showed how to properly format a guide, with basic ideas of what to include, in a way that made the task not seem too daunting to achieve. That's how we got to having as many guides as we did. If I said write something like this (Jackson Hole or WMR) much fewer volunteers would've felt capable.

Aggressive mediocrity describes most recreational skiers (myself included). The more you hate on them the greater you jeopardize the future success of this site. The community will ultimately become what it's members decide to be with the guiding help of the moderation team.

I agree with why you chose your guide, just think you brought this on yourself by not pointing at some other guy's guide, ASSUMING THERE WAS ONE. Definitely it should not have been mine.

I haven't noticed any lack of welcome here, but then it wasn't like I was a newbie when I started posting.

 

[Started at 53]

I've only skied 6 days in my life, but fell in love with it and I have been made to feel very welcome here

 

[Jack skis]

Two things Tyler. First, some years ago I became interested in Sufism, and one of the sayings I remember, and try to apply to my personal life is: "Self justification if worse than the original offense."

Second: It's over.

 

[James]

No site can exist these days without mobile. Tapatalk just is annoying and I refuse to use it. Amazing Huddler had to be cajoled into mobile. I guess that was a sign that they were on a downward spiral. Those geniuses who developed stuff for discussion sites yet somehow forgot people use words and read. Brilliant perhaps but with a huge blind spot.

I'll say it again. If you think over here is not subject to the same issues as over there you're delusional. Everything that epic went through is just part of the internet. When epic started there was what? Netscape as the major browser? No google, no facebook, not many had cell phones. I didn't till 2002. Lots of people still had beepers. Not a lot of people were online having discussions outside of specialty sites. It was all text too. I can't remember the history of posting images on epic. Maybe @AC can comment.

The basic issue is how do you have discussions on the internet with out it degenerating so badly that people won't join in? The noise outweighs the signal, and some who have the most to offer won't because of the noise, hassle, and personal attacks. Let's face it, if you had a forum where you're discussing General Relativity and Einstein was on there with a different screen name, someone would tell him he's an idiot and knows nothing about Einstein or his theories. Even if he was posting under his own name someone at some point would tell him he's wrong, a disgrace to his theory and should shut up. Einstein will conclude it's not worth his time to participate in discussing his work. This is the way it goes. Or can go. How that's handled isn't a simple matter. Lots of things were discussed on epic. It was an interesting problem. I think all those discussions in the stakehoder's group have actually disappeared. Too bad, there was some good stuff there. I think those discussions petered out before the sale and definitely were done after. Volunteering for a corporation is something else.

The other issue is how do these forums even function without the principal owners/starters/moderaters whatever. At some point everyone gets burned out or other things come calling or you get sick or you just don't want to deal with something that's a lot of work. What happens then? Some people say well then it just disappears, big deal get over it. If the site is just for yakking then ok, no loss. When people put serious effort though into discussing technique or gear or history that's different. Then when it goes away even if everyone who participated is sick of it, others have lost the posibility of learning from it.

So, here we go...

 

[Mendieta]

Two things Tyler. First, some years ago I became interested in Sufism, and one of the sayings I remember, and try to apply to my personal life is: "Self justification if worse than the original offense."

Second: It's over.

Jack, please see my post above. No personal attacks here. Either we go back to remember Epic with love or we close the thread. Thank you for understanding.

 

[Alexzn]

Jack, please see my post above. No personal attacks here. Either we go back to remember Epic with love or we close the thread. Thank you for understanding.

This was not a personal attack. As you may have guessed by now I think Tyler has not taken any responsibility for the mistakes he made, so I would like to see him owing up to some of them (for once).

 

[Andy Mink]

I've only skied 6 days in my life, but fell in love with it and I have been made to feel very welcome here

That's what this site is striving for. Everyone has input at some level. Your comment of 6 times and fell in love is what folks who have skied for 30, 40, and 50 years need to be reminded of. We're all here because we really enjoy/like/love skiing.

 

[scott43]

Is this Epic Shit Show Part 2? Let it lie..

 

[Jack skis]

Jack, please see my post above. No personal attacks here. Either we go back to remember Epic with love or we close the thread. Thank you for understanding.

Oh, oh, I seem to have blotted my copy book. I was not making a personal attack. I just feel this has gone on long enough. Points have been made, points have been taken, but from my viewpoint enough is enough.

Wait, what did I say about self justification? Blew that too didi't I.

 

[Alexzn]

Tyler, if you have numbers, please share them. If you were so successful at driving traffic to the site, why did it close down?

The quality of the content does make a tremendous difference. I came to Epic because I needed some boot advice and I got it from the likes of SierraJim (which caused me to drive to Sacramento to meet him in person). When you post a boot question there is a huge difference between getting an answer from a real boot fitter and being told that "Any Mountain has a huge sale right now on boots right now, go there". Both are useful, but one is way more than the other. Same with skis, would you like to be told that "I ski Mantras, they are awesome" or "all really good skiers at Breck ski Blizzard", or would you like to get a nuanced answer from Jim, Phil, Dawg, or marcojp? As for Unofficial Guides, I just don't buy your reasons. I modeled my guide to Squaw on Bob Peters' guide to Jackson, and as the result Squaw guide currently has the most clicks of all Unofficial Guides on Epic. If I modeled it on your Bretton Woods opus, the result would have been quite different.

Finally, EpicSki was exceedingly tolerant of silly posts by people (don't believe me? go to TGR), anyone recalls the truly misguides series of posts by Mr. Chemist about how the best way to ski powder was on slalom race skis (and proudly pointing out his PhD degree as a way to justify that)? So, don't stick it to the people who ski 30+ days a year, they are usually willing to help. The rule is simple: Don't be an arrogant fool in your first few posts and you will get good advice and good treatment.

To sum up, I am not a big fan of Tyler's stewardship of EpicSki, he was in way over your head, and he refused to admit then and continues to do it now.

 

[Philpug]

OK...everyone. We all are hurting here. Epicski is how we all met. No one understands more than @Tricia and myself. Mistakes were made by everyone but lets stop going after the pawns here and understand there was nothing Tyler could have done here to stop this, nothing ANY OF US, including Tricia nor myself done to stop this. Tyler was stand up enough to call us before the announcement was made and I owe him that so while ti was a small jesture it was a huge one in our eyes that he did not have to do.