- Joined
- Apr 24, 2017
- Posts
- 35
What follows is a repost of my final thoughts on EpicSki.
Ok this post started as a response to this comment, but has turned into my autopsy of EpicSki. I can't share confidential traffic numbers and don't actually have any hard revenue numbers so all examples below are fictitious, but this should present a pretty clear overview:
Basically this. I mean it sucks, but I understand it too. I've talked with at least one possible purchaser outside of the Epic realm (and a career forum person sympathetic to the situation) about it and they basically told me that it will be more money for Vail to do a conversion or sale than the content is worth. It has a lot of value to us--and yes to me too to those of you who I'm sure might accuse me of toeing the company line again--both intellectual and intrinsic. I still don't agree with the decision, but when you have a business, especially a publicly traded company let's say they can sell the content for 5 grand (my rough guess on the high side of what the unconverted data would be worth), but the due diligence, technical stuff, etc. is going to cost you $15,000 (made up number) would you do it as an uninterested manager/business owner? The lower level people at MNC like Heather at least had some level of interest in EpicSki occasionally participating here, and they are sympathetic, comments on here from certain jaded individuals to the contrary. The higher levels I don't think even have an account here, and they're the ones making the decisions. I've been told all along it would be a business decision at the higher levels, not made by those of us involved in day to day operations. From a business perspective that makes sense, from a "feelings" perspective it doesn't. I understand that.
I'm not saying it's "right" I'm just saying it shouldn't be so shocking. As my dad (someone who built a successful business from nothing) always told me "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it". He's in the photography field and was an early adopter of digital photography. He often commented this when seeing colleagues trying to sell antiquated film equipment in a way to not lose money on their original investment. There are a lot of factors in play here. For one I mentioned in the RIP thread that I always expected Epic to die some day--just for different reasons and further in the future. EpicSki (unless run as a charity) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
The ski industry is slowly dying, hopefully something will be done about that. Even if it doesn't die there's an increasing competition for attention among various recreational pursuits which leads to more recreational skiers and less 'dedicated skiers' which has always been the target market of places like this (it's been the official motto for as long as I've been around). In fact I worked during my term as Site Manager to shift away from the insider-devout focused community of years past of people with 5 pairs of skis who are out 100 days a year to one open to the occasional, recreational skier that is increasingly the dominant demographic of the ski community. One comment I've frequently received over the last year from lurkers and new members is an appreciation for how open Epic is to members who aren't the 100 day a year skiers, but people who enjoy doing it just for fun a few days a year. And I want to say I thank all of you in the community for your courtesy and shift in that regard. I've noticed even members who previously were prone to disparage new or inexperienced users have become increasingly more helpful and friendly.
In addition to being a skiing forum, the forum industry is also dying. An increasing shift towards mobile technology is a huge factor. I was on Huddler's back for over a year because they kept insisting on not developing a mobile platform. We (@Cirquerider and @nolo too) were dogged with them on making a mobile platform. That has been influential to keeping Epic as strong as it has that Huddler finally listened to us and a couple other sites owners demands. In my observations mobile users view 25% less pages and comment much less than Desktop users. That is not favorable to a forum's continued existence, a site is driven by interactions rather than quality of content. Even with a forum growing healthily a 12.5% year over year growth (mobile making up at least half of traffic) is a hard number to achieve, especially in a shrinking industry who's key demographic is not of a generation that grew up with Internet Forums. It is also an increasingly saturated and accessible market. When @AC started EpicSki getting a forum going required technical know-how, investment, etc. Now anyone with a basic knowledge of web development, and less than $100 can start a forum that is software stable, secure, and free of constant data losing crashes (like EpicSki was prone to in the early days).
Many forums are dying because even though they're relatively cheap to keep online they're a huge time commitment for the Site Manager (I know) and places like Facebook Groups, Reddit, etc. that make money from quantity and access to a large user-base are increasingly becoming common. I doubted EpicSki would exist, in it's current form anyhow, for more than a few more years. I was trying to shape content and policy in a way to extend that and grew the forum. Obviously the establishment of a rival site (we all have 24 hours in a day so if time spent reading skiing information on one site takes away from another site that's a rivalry even if there isn't significant ill-will) damaged EpicSki in the short term. However with those changes in policy we were actually putting up better numbers than Epic ever saw under any previous administration during the bulk of this winter. That was a result not of past content, but current engagement of new segments of the market. We had our best numbers for returning users--compared to people coming from a Google search--about something in our recent history (2008-present) this winter. We were becoming much more outsider friendly and much less of a clique (which will be essential for PugSki to make that shift if it is to survive to become a home for the Epic community).
That was promising, but equally with more opportunities for advertising, the market for an enthusiast community was increasingly Balkanized so that linear increases in viewership doesn't lead to linear increases in revenue. One could grow page views by (made up number) 10% and actually lose 5% of revenue (again not real numbers, just exemplary). Site's increasingly have to turn to things like Sponsored Posts, censorship or harder policies of negative sponsor comments, etc. just to survive. EpicSki only had two prospects for long term survival--being run as a non-profit by a core of donor/investors or shifting to that new business model. I pushed really hard for the latter in the absence of a former, but at the same time it would've been a very risky business move. Platform conversions come with significant costs and risks. Traffic inevitably drops (see the past vB-Huddler conversion) in a market with all the above stated problems.
@nolo has taken some unjust speculative hate in some of these retrospective threads. Did she "sell out"? Yeah she did. But she was as a part owner personally ensuring the liquidity of the site for years. I remember my first two years on the staff that we had to all stop working for a bit because the account was in the red. Even then a lot of times she was personally covering payroll while waiting for the seasonal income to come in. I've only been doing this job for one and a half years and I'm only 24. I can't imagine having done it for almost a decade after having already had a previously successful career like Joan did; it's a 24/7 mostly thankless (and especially this week) stressful job. Plus I had the benefit of being a contractor rather than an owner who could lose a huge chunk of change should something go south. I don't blame her for her decision because as I said EpicSki either needed a lot of work to adapt or needed to be run as a non-profit. No one should have to invest all their time running a money-losing venture against their will.
I don't want to give undue credit to myself either. I was a manager much more than a contributor. I managed a community, not made it. @AC literally had to talk to himself to invent this place, @nolo invested heavily and drove discussions, @Trekchick and @Philpug had a cult of personality that kept people engaged. I focused on driving others to create content rather than making it myself. A lot of people criticized me and I don't hold anything against them. I'm relatively inexperienced in the skiing industry, life has taken me to living in a non-snowy environment, and a lot of you have forgotten more about skiing this winter than I've known all my life. I understand all that, but if you think one or two people make a community then you don't understand what a forum is; if that is the case you have a blog with active commentators, not a forum. In that sense, part of EpicSki will live on in other places like PugSki, but the community itself will never be the same. That is neither a good or bad thing, it's a fact. The vast majority of the active commentators from when I started in 2009 are gone and the community now is significantly different than when I first discovered EpicSki. Likewise you can be an excellent chef (skier), but have your restaurant go bankrupt if you don't know how to run a business. My goal with EpicSki was always to make the site successful from my contributions behind the scenes, not in my direct participation in ski-related discussions. I'd like to think I was successful in that in the limited time I was able to influence these matters; my only regret is that the situation with Huddler/Wikia robbed me of the necessary time to make EpicSki into something that also made business sense to keep alive.
So in conclusion I have encouraged two things this past week: 1) archive your content, and 2) keep the discussion going at PugSki. As regards to the first point the EpicSki community is dying; that is sad, tragic, frustrating, even infuriating, but that's why the last of the five steps is acceptance--it is reality. It is easier for me to say that than for a lot of you because I've had much longer to contemplate it than those of you who only first started to think about it a week ago. As to the second I hold no particular filial relationship to push people there. Personally I don't care for the (being frank here) aggressive, unwelcoming to recreationalists, insider culture there. I know from private conversations I'm not alone, perhaps not even in the minority in that opinion. If PugSki is going to last the test of time it will also have to make many of the aforementioned adjustments, I hope my musings on the subject help to at least keep some of the Epic culture alive there.
In conclusion I thank all of you for your years of service. Our volunteer mods, especially those of recent years who didn't even get things like discounts to go to ESA, you have been a godsend to the community. Likewise I was the one who was around from the beginning of the Ambassador program. @nolo invented it, I got it going, and @Laurel Hill Crazie kept it going. You all have impressed me with your devotion to your home areas and the impressive Unofficial Guides you created (special shout outs to @Bob Peters and @Sibhusky for your over-the-top awesome guides).
Especially in my case and also for @Trekchick I think @marznc deserves a special shout-out. There's a lot of things related to running the site like generating and curating content, tagging, sponsor outreach, etc. that comes with the job and can be put off for a few days when needed. Whenever I've been burned out, needed to get away, etc. @marznc has always been there to handle the time-sensitive things like featured content as well as being an expert in how to tag content and welcome new users. If I were to have to leave EpicSki or something happened to me, I always told the folks at MNC that @marznc was the most capable person to handle things. I know she's not one who likes the spotlight, but in a eulogy for EpicSki she deserves a very significant mention.
I plan to occasionally pop in at PugSki to keep up with all of you (assuming my objective comments don't get me banned); I've especially enjoyed getting to hang out with all of you at the Mid-Atlantic and NE Gatherings; I also have made lasting friendships thanks to working side-by-side with many of you in the Moderation and Planning forums. I've always tried to be a fair and just administrator. I know I'm not perfect and you may not have always agreed with me, for that I apologize for any errors in my judgment, but I just want to say that I always tirelessly tried to act in the best interests of this community and I wish all of you happy, powder filled days ahead.
Sincerely,
Tyler Wenzel
Site Manager
Originally Posted by dbostedo
"Too expensive", "too inconsequential", and "too time consuming" would probably be more accurate.
Ok this post started as a response to this comment, but has turned into my autopsy of EpicSki. I can't share confidential traffic numbers and don't actually have any hard revenue numbers so all examples below are fictitious, but this should present a pretty clear overview:
Basically this. I mean it sucks, but I understand it too. I've talked with at least one possible purchaser outside of the Epic realm (and a career forum person sympathetic to the situation) about it and they basically told me that it will be more money for Vail to do a conversion or sale than the content is worth. It has a lot of value to us--and yes to me too to those of you who I'm sure might accuse me of toeing the company line again--both intellectual and intrinsic. I still don't agree with the decision, but when you have a business, especially a publicly traded company let's say they can sell the content for 5 grand (my rough guess on the high side of what the unconverted data would be worth), but the due diligence, technical stuff, etc. is going to cost you $15,000 (made up number) would you do it as an uninterested manager/business owner? The lower level people at MNC like Heather at least had some level of interest in EpicSki occasionally participating here, and they are sympathetic, comments on here from certain jaded individuals to the contrary. The higher levels I don't think even have an account here, and they're the ones making the decisions. I've been told all along it would be a business decision at the higher levels, not made by those of us involved in day to day operations. From a business perspective that makes sense, from a "feelings" perspective it doesn't. I understand that.
I'm not saying it's "right" I'm just saying it shouldn't be so shocking. As my dad (someone who built a successful business from nothing) always told me "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it". He's in the photography field and was an early adopter of digital photography. He often commented this when seeing colleagues trying to sell antiquated film equipment in a way to not lose money on their original investment. There are a lot of factors in play here. For one I mentioned in the RIP thread that I always expected Epic to die some day--just for different reasons and further in the future. EpicSki (unless run as a charity) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
The ski industry is slowly dying, hopefully something will be done about that. Even if it doesn't die there's an increasing competition for attention among various recreational pursuits which leads to more recreational skiers and less 'dedicated skiers' which has always been the target market of places like this (it's been the official motto for as long as I've been around). In fact I worked during my term as Site Manager to shift away from the insider-devout focused community of years past of people with 5 pairs of skis who are out 100 days a year to one open to the occasional, recreational skier that is increasingly the dominant demographic of the ski community. One comment I've frequently received over the last year from lurkers and new members is an appreciation for how open Epic is to members who aren't the 100 day a year skiers, but people who enjoy doing it just for fun a few days a year. And I want to say I thank all of you in the community for your courtesy and shift in that regard. I've noticed even members who previously were prone to disparage new or inexperienced users have become increasingly more helpful and friendly.
In addition to being a skiing forum, the forum industry is also dying. An increasing shift towards mobile technology is a huge factor. I was on Huddler's back for over a year because they kept insisting on not developing a mobile platform. We (@Cirquerider and @nolo too) were dogged with them on making a mobile platform. That has been influential to keeping Epic as strong as it has that Huddler finally listened to us and a couple other sites owners demands. In my observations mobile users view 25% less pages and comment much less than Desktop users. That is not favorable to a forum's continued existence, a site is driven by interactions rather than quality of content. Even with a forum growing healthily a 12.5% year over year growth (mobile making up at least half of traffic) is a hard number to achieve, especially in a shrinking industry who's key demographic is not of a generation that grew up with Internet Forums. It is also an increasingly saturated and accessible market. When @AC started EpicSki getting a forum going required technical know-how, investment, etc. Now anyone with a basic knowledge of web development, and less than $100 can start a forum that is software stable, secure, and free of constant data losing crashes (like EpicSki was prone to in the early days).
Many forums are dying because even though they're relatively cheap to keep online they're a huge time commitment for the Site Manager (I know) and places like Facebook Groups, Reddit, etc. that make money from quantity and access to a large user-base are increasingly becoming common. I doubted EpicSki would exist, in it's current form anyhow, for more than a few more years. I was trying to shape content and policy in a way to extend that and grew the forum. Obviously the establishment of a rival site (we all have 24 hours in a day so if time spent reading skiing information on one site takes away from another site that's a rivalry even if there isn't significant ill-will) damaged EpicSki in the short term. However with those changes in policy we were actually putting up better numbers than Epic ever saw under any previous administration during the bulk of this winter. That was a result not of past content, but current engagement of new segments of the market. We had our best numbers for returning users--compared to people coming from a Google search--about something in our recent history (2008-present) this winter. We were becoming much more outsider friendly and much less of a clique (which will be essential for PugSki to make that shift if it is to survive to become a home for the Epic community).
That was promising, but equally with more opportunities for advertising, the market for an enthusiast community was increasingly Balkanized so that linear increases in viewership doesn't lead to linear increases in revenue. One could grow page views by (made up number) 10% and actually lose 5% of revenue (again not real numbers, just exemplary). Site's increasingly have to turn to things like Sponsored Posts, censorship or harder policies of negative sponsor comments, etc. just to survive. EpicSki only had two prospects for long term survival--being run as a non-profit by a core of donor/investors or shifting to that new business model. I pushed really hard for the latter in the absence of a former, but at the same time it would've been a very risky business move. Platform conversions come with significant costs and risks. Traffic inevitably drops (see the past vB-Huddler conversion) in a market with all the above stated problems.
@nolo has taken some unjust speculative hate in some of these retrospective threads. Did she "sell out"? Yeah she did. But she was as a part owner personally ensuring the liquidity of the site for years. I remember my first two years on the staff that we had to all stop working for a bit because the account was in the red. Even then a lot of times she was personally covering payroll while waiting for the seasonal income to come in. I've only been doing this job for one and a half years and I'm only 24. I can't imagine having done it for almost a decade after having already had a previously successful career like Joan did; it's a 24/7 mostly thankless (and especially this week) stressful job. Plus I had the benefit of being a contractor rather than an owner who could lose a huge chunk of change should something go south. I don't blame her for her decision because as I said EpicSki either needed a lot of work to adapt or needed to be run as a non-profit. No one should have to invest all their time running a money-losing venture against their will.
I don't want to give undue credit to myself either. I was a manager much more than a contributor. I managed a community, not made it. @AC literally had to talk to himself to invent this place, @nolo invested heavily and drove discussions, @Trekchick and @Philpug had a cult of personality that kept people engaged. I focused on driving others to create content rather than making it myself. A lot of people criticized me and I don't hold anything against them. I'm relatively inexperienced in the skiing industry, life has taken me to living in a non-snowy environment, and a lot of you have forgotten more about skiing this winter than I've known all my life. I understand all that, but if you think one or two people make a community then you don't understand what a forum is; if that is the case you have a blog with active commentators, not a forum. In that sense, part of EpicSki will live on in other places like PugSki, but the community itself will never be the same. That is neither a good or bad thing, it's a fact. The vast majority of the active commentators from when I started in 2009 are gone and the community now is significantly different than when I first discovered EpicSki. Likewise you can be an excellent chef (skier), but have your restaurant go bankrupt if you don't know how to run a business. My goal with EpicSki was always to make the site successful from my contributions behind the scenes, not in my direct participation in ski-related discussions. I'd like to think I was successful in that in the limited time I was able to influence these matters; my only regret is that the situation with Huddler/Wikia robbed me of the necessary time to make EpicSki into something that also made business sense to keep alive.
So in conclusion I have encouraged two things this past week: 1) archive your content, and 2) keep the discussion going at PugSki. As regards to the first point the EpicSki community is dying; that is sad, tragic, frustrating, even infuriating, but that's why the last of the five steps is acceptance--it is reality. It is easier for me to say that than for a lot of you because I've had much longer to contemplate it than those of you who only first started to think about it a week ago. As to the second I hold no particular filial relationship to push people there. Personally I don't care for the (being frank here) aggressive, unwelcoming to recreationalists, insider culture there. I know from private conversations I'm not alone, perhaps not even in the minority in that opinion. If PugSki is going to last the test of time it will also have to make many of the aforementioned adjustments, I hope my musings on the subject help to at least keep some of the Epic culture alive there.
In conclusion I thank all of you for your years of service. Our volunteer mods, especially those of recent years who didn't even get things like discounts to go to ESA, you have been a godsend to the community. Likewise I was the one who was around from the beginning of the Ambassador program. @nolo invented it, I got it going, and @Laurel Hill Crazie kept it going. You all have impressed me with your devotion to your home areas and the impressive Unofficial Guides you created (special shout outs to @Bob Peters and @Sibhusky for your over-the-top awesome guides).
Especially in my case and also for @Trekchick I think @marznc deserves a special shout-out. There's a lot of things related to running the site like generating and curating content, tagging, sponsor outreach, etc. that comes with the job and can be put off for a few days when needed. Whenever I've been burned out, needed to get away, etc. @marznc has always been there to handle the time-sensitive things like featured content as well as being an expert in how to tag content and welcome new users. If I were to have to leave EpicSki or something happened to me, I always told the folks at MNC that @marznc was the most capable person to handle things. I know she's not one who likes the spotlight, but in a eulogy for EpicSki she deserves a very significant mention.
I plan to occasionally pop in at PugSki to keep up with all of you (assuming my objective comments don't get me banned); I've especially enjoyed getting to hang out with all of you at the Mid-Atlantic and NE Gatherings; I also have made lasting friendships thanks to working side-by-side with many of you in the Moderation and Planning forums. I've always tried to be a fair and just administrator. I know I'm not perfect and you may not have always agreed with me, for that I apologize for any errors in my judgment, but I just want to say that I always tirelessly tried to act in the best interests of this community and I wish all of you happy, powder filled days ahead.
Sincerely,
Tyler Wenzel
Site Manager
I am rapidly getting over the whole Epic discussion........ I do care about the content. I am happy to see both old and new faces here at Pugski. All the conjecture and finger pointing is a waste of energy and is beoming a rapidly deteriorating carcass......
