DIY alignment questions

[Sunnysloper]

Hi first post here,

A couple questions:
What are there advantages/disadvantages to boot planing canting over shimming the binding canting beyond convenience?
Does the pronation amount change over time?
Does the amount of inside lift needed change between different types of skis and bindings?
I think I read that the toe and heal may need different cants, is that right?


My DIY boot alignment story:

Last season I tore my left Achilles' tendon. After struggling this season with a left foot that seemed hard to get on edge and wobbly when pressured I figured the injury was still keeping me from skiing my best. Then I read this:

I just had an epiphany! Watching HH and Diana perform the TFR and watching Helluvaskiers Scholpy drill with his wobbling outside leg, I am wondering if HH doesn't tend to over cant his students? Symptoms of being over canted are wobbly outside leg when loaded and having to exaggerate angulation to engage the little toe edge (see HH and Diana TFR)? just say'n....

That was exactly what my problem. But Alignment? Blame it on the boots? When I read that gear changes might fix things that better skiing can't, I tune out. Like Plake says "Having skis that make you ski better doesn't make you a better skier". Same for boots right?

By screwing my left femur into my hip and "pre"angulating and clearing my left hip out wards (maybe not the right terms, I'm a recreational skier) I could get on the edge ok in most turns but the wobble when the ski was loaded wasn't responding to technique changes. I figured with more skiing, garlands on to the left edge, better timing etc. I could fix the wobble (kind of a scary wave like flapping at the front of the ski). Wrong.

Last week l read about then tried reverse spin side slip drill. Spin to right foot and slip, no problem. Spin to left foot and slip, no way. I had to pressure the little toe edge of the left boot to get the ski flat enough to slide and that put my hip and body in a position that made it hard to slide down the fall line with out traversing.

What was going on? After more research I concluded my left foot might be pronated and that weakness in my lower leg ( from the Achilles tear ) was making it harder for me to compensate for it.

So I tried to fix my "protated" (again I'm not a pro but I'll use their terms, maybe wrongly) alignment. First I cut a footbed in half and beveled it so that only the big toe edge side remained. With a big toe side sided footbed and a shim in the inside cuff of the left boot I could feel a difference. Having something to push on, on the inside edge felt more powerful. Turn initiation seem easier but the wobble was still there. What's more my foot hurt quite a bit and fell asleep after a few runs.

Next, I pulled the half foot bed and cuff shim out and placed four strips of duct tape between the binding and the plate (~1.2mm lift, over ~55mm width = ~1.2degree ?). A technique mentioned on this board in the boot canting thread I think.

What a difference!

The ski felt flat, fast, stable, quick to edge and no wobble. It felt better than the ski on my good leg. The side slip drill still wasn't great but it was way better. And I felt like a better skier.

There's a gap between the binding and plate. The binding "bridges" between the taped side on not taped side. Is that going to be a problem? I'll try a bit more tape and perhaps a tognar shim when I get the degree of lift dialed.

Any other advice?


Tl;dr: Drank the boot alignment koolaid, it worked great

 

[bud heishman]

Yes, here is some sound advice, see a professional and get it done correctly!

While experimenting and hypothesizing is fun and educational, it is time consuming, risky if you don't know what you are doing, and just plane throwing darts. A skilled boot fitter will use a methodology to work through the sagittal, frontal and transverse planes to assess and adjust your equipment correctly.

And yes, getting your equipment properly aligned/balanced will instantly improve your skiing by removing impediments to progress. Tune out if you like but you will be missing the easiest way to improve performance instantly. Will getting it all dialed in make you and instant expert? NO! but it will clear the path to progress.

 

[BGreen]

Answering the first question only, the advantage of planing over shims is, well, I can't think of any. Easier maybe if you are setup for it. You likely have more of the DIN interfaces. Also you can do just a little more, which is often all you need. The downside is if the assessment is wrong, or if they are done wrong (you need two degrees tip in, but the grind is two degrees tip out) you will have to replace the boots. The advantages of shims is consistency and that you can change them. Also much easier to fix a mistake. It is more about the skill of the person doing the work. I have both and have done both.

 

[bud heishman]

The advantage of planing over shims is obviously a better option if you have multiple skis or like demoing other skis as your cant angles will always be consistent and it is less expensive than shimming multiple skis, and you can switch your skis right to left without to maximize you skis life and lengthen tuning increments.

There is no downside. If the boot was mis-planed or the skier wants a slightly different angle, they can be simply re-planed and fitted with a slightly thicker lifter plate and rerouted to specs. It does not ruin the boot! I have been planing boots for over 30 years and have only screwed up one boot because I was trying to get too much angle on a boot with a screw on sole and weakened the lug, which was hollow, too much and it failed. Note I have planed 1,000's of boots.

"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

Note that some boots with screw on soles are not planable or more than very small amounts but "Cantology" makes canting shims for many of these screw on sole boots which are placed between the sole and clog then the lugs are routed to specs. Works great. A solid sole boot is an easy boot to plane and lift. Note also that many system bindings make it next to impossible to cant under the binding though I have found some where the mounting plates can be removed and shimmed.

 

[James]

I think they meant canted plates on the boot instead of planing. Like Cantology.

 

[Sunnysloper]

@Bud heischman You're right, experimenting with boot alignment has been fun and educational.

Of course I'd rather have a skilled boot fitter work on my alignment. Finding a skilled boot fitter to work on alignment may not be that easy though, especially if a skier ( like me ) doesn't know he's misaligned. I've purchased two pairs of boots from shop well known for boot fitting. They didn't formally check, mention or correct my alignment. Neither have any of the coaches or instructors I've skied with. The boots I'm in now aren't from that shop.

If I hadn't read the post about boot alignment possibly causing wobbles in a ski turn ( quoted in my first post )I may never have explored the possibility that my alignment was causing my wobble.

Using the methods I first read about on this forum ( A boot canting thread ), I found that small changes in "canting" ( or whatever you call putting tape under the big toe side of the binding ) made positive changes to the ski/boot. Changes to the footbed and cuff had some effect too.

Now that I know that I have symptoms of misalignment I'll make sure it's addressed by a fitter next time I buy boots. Unfortunately I'm not in the market for new boots right now so I either have to address it myself, find some one who will work with what I have or leave it alone.

Im still curious about the limits of my DIY adjustment ( Bad for the binding? cant toe and heal to different degrees? ) and the nature of alignment (does it change over time? Is it effected by injury? Is there one best alignment for all types of ski/conditions?).

I posted to let folks here know I'd found useful information on this board and put it to use. Thanks for your insight!

 

[James]

m still curious about the limits of my DIY adjustment ( Bad for the binding? cant toe and heal to different degrees? ) and the nature of alignment (does it change over time? Is it effected by injury? Is there one best alignment for all types of ski/conditions?).

You would not want heel and toe at different cant angles. Doesn't make sense. The boot will either twist, toe piece will twist, you'll get a wobble or one, prob heel will take precedence.

Bud can answer the changing alignment question. In general yes, it changes. Certainly injury could change it. As for different conditions, yes and no. Racers will have different setups for different events. Some of that is alignment laterally (cant) and fore/aft- zeppa, ramp, forward lean.
No reason same couldn't apply to rec skiing, but in general if you're setup well on groomers should be pretty good everywhere else.

 

[Philpug]

Doing your own alignment is like giving yourself your own root canal or vascectomy. Both of those proceedures and an alignment should be done by someone with more experience..and a better perspective.

 

[Living Proof]

The search for correct alignment is a very elusive chase. Consultations with experts will not always yield similar results, at least in my experience, and, those of many who have posted their results in various ski forums. The are both static and onsnow tests, I am not sure there is a consistent definition as to know when you are truly aligned. When I returned to skiing, I followed the technique writings of Harald Harb. In his book 'Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 1', published in 1991, he devoted an entire chapter to alignment which remains the most comprehensive written analysis that I have come across, there are many factors involved. You can buy a electronic copy for about $12 on his website.

Harald gave me feedback on a video of my skiing, and, told me I am very knock-kneed on the left side. He recommended using a 2 degree shim with the high side facing the inside of the ski, so, it moves my knee to the outside. I also had a session with a highly regarded boot fitter in my area, and, his assessment, done via a sophisticated static analysis, indicated I was pretty much close to being flat. I changed boots, and had them setup by a shop recommended by @HeluvaSkier in upstate New York. One leg is shorter than the other and modified my boots to add height to one boot. This could change allignment, so, the next year HeluvaSkier skied with me and added shims until he believed my alignment was good. Net result is that the initial Harb analysis was pretty much correct 3 boots later.

Harb's book offers simple on-snow tests to determine your base canting needs. The first is to find a very flat slope and point your skis directly downhill. Lift one ski and determine if your ski running flat down the the hill with little edging or turning. If you happen to be knock-kneed like me, when standing on the left foot, you will edge the inside and turn right. If you are bow-legged, you will turn left. Adjust your shims on both feet and you will have a starting point when you can pick up either leg and just glide down flat. I made my test shims with pieces of cutup credit cards glued together is several thicknesses The other tests are too complex to go into here.

As a very broad general statement, Harb looks to see the shin bones of your legs to be parallel from the apex of turn back to the start of the next turn. That test may not be applicable to all techniques.

@bud heishman ,
I'm curious as what you would look for in an initial on-snow assessment of alignment. How do you know someone needs help? I know that when the Gathering was in Tahoe, you did alignment work for those who participated in your clinic. In hindsight, I wish I had joined. The OP is in the eastern Sierras, can't be that far from Reno.

 

[bud heishman]

Hi Living Proof, When observing on snow performance I am looking at fore/aft, lateral, and rotational symptoms of misalignment. Though over or under canting is relatively easy to spot and is about as far as most instructors or coaches understanding goes, there are many more indicators of misalignments in other parameters which are adjustable. I have identified 10 parameters which I assess and adjust. Just looking at the frontal plane (edging) there are 4 parameters which need to be coordinated to optimize equal access to both edges of which sole canting is the last adjustment made rather than the first. Don't have time to go through a thorough on hill assessment protocol but basically it involves understanding and having a clear mental image of what the target is and understanding the symptoms of misalignment overlayed over this target image.

This being said I like your assessment tasks of straight runs on one ski, traverses, short swing turns, one ski round steered medium turns. There are also intrinsic symptoms which the skier must be able to communicate where small adjustments to footbed posting or cuff alignment can solve issues without changing boot sole angles.