Drill Deconstructing Mikaela Shiffrin slalom turns

[LiquidFeet]

The way those two move their bodies in the Rumba is fascinating, and somewhat ... odd. I think it's supposed to be sexy.
But is it? The man moves like a robot, or alien from another planet, attempting to look sexy but missing the mark. IMO.

 

[Chris Walker]

Personally, I love MS's skiing not for her finish times, but the beauty of her skiing. Second run at St. Moritz this past season is a great example.

I think most any second SL run of Mikaela's shows why I love her skiing. She is almost always going in the high 20s if not 30th in the second run, meaning the course is usually pretty badly rutted and chewed up. It's such a contrast to watch the racers going before her get bounced around all over the place and then she comes down just as smooth as silk, like you were watching the first forerunner. Such a refined and practiced technique.

The second run in Maribor when she skied over a displaced pole and not only stayed on her feet but won the race was just nuts.

 

[Muleski]

BTW, the coaches essentially acknowledge that a big part of MS's second run dominance is that she is the most fit, best conditioned and actually among the strongest on tour. So she is not drained in the bottom third of her second runs. She typically reels in a LOT of time.

Another piece is that tactically she does not always approach a first run with the mindset that she will crush it. Very often her slowest interval is the top third of the first run. This is very different from the men, particularly SL stars like Hirscher, and HK.

It also has to do with MS's relative dominance over a fairly weak field. She can easily (and beautifullly) deal with the 30th start position. She skis a different line much of the time, and the difference between what happens to the surface in a women's race versus the men is quite different. Men destroy it!

Yes, she is fun to watch. Once a generation talent.

 

[karlo]

going in the high 20s if not 30th

I'm not a racer. What is this?

 

[karlo]

30th start position

Oh, nevermind. I get it.

 

[karlo]

The man moves like a robot, or alien from another planet,

They are demonstrating capabilities and elements. Check out other Rumba dances done for entertaining an audience, or in competition.

 

[Chris Walker]

Oh, nevermind. I get it.

Yes, 30th start position, sorry. The fastest 30 racers in the first run go in reverse order in the second run. So since MS is usually among the fastest in the first run, she's usually among the last to go in the second run.

 

[karlo]

Ironically, I think a lot of balance comes from the core.

I recall reading that MS unicycled when she was young

along with many other weird games in the garage and anything improving the proprioception and fast twich fibers.

Been thinking about this, that unicycling must be great for core strength, so I looked it up. This is what unicyclists have to say about it.

http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84776

I also recall reading that unicycling was one of the fun and games activities that Momma Bear got her kids to do, to make the soccer team after having not made the cut. I'm thinking that this was fortuitous for the skiing. For sure good skiers, in particular the best skiers, appreciate and utilize core strength. And, young kids don't normally develop core strength, much less appreciate its use. Now, if the kids develop core strength early, and learn to use it early, then have access to a capability that others, at a young age, do not have; they now have the ability to do things and train at a higher level, far earlier, than other kids can. They are on a faster learning curve. I very much doubt that the Shiffrin's were out to train a child skiing prodigy; their kids were just having fun. However, if kids were plucked from their families at an early age, as in China, to develop world-class athletes, it seems to me that unicycling, or something like it, would be part of the (ahem) core curriculum.

 

[Muleski]

I very much doubt that the Shiffrin's were out to train a child skiing prodigy; their kids were just having fun.

Sorry, hit send by mistake. Hence the edit.

I would agree, in terms of activities like the unicycling being done by them for fun, which is what I think you meant. Friends of theirs talk a lot about all sorts of activities when the kids were young. I know somebody who had MS on her kid's U12 soccer team, I think a state championship team, when she was nine. And the best player on the team.

But, anybody who knows the family will tell you they they absolutely set out to train to elite level ski racers, as soon as the kids could stand on skis. Was always the plan. And since racing was fun for the parents, Eileen having really embraced it as an adult, and since she loved the precision and drills, that is what they did for fun. So many tell me.

There are first seed WC skiers getting in as much freeskiing as they can right now, before training starts again. Hiking into the backcountry, skiing rough off piste stuff all over the globe. Mikaela and her mother are having fun skiing, and doing a few drills at A-Basin. That is their fun.

It works for her. It's different. Most other racers and coaches think it's a bit strange. Nobody recommends it for younger up and comers. Most recommend a lot of differing terrain and snow.

The unicycling I think was all about fun. Busy kids at those ages, so probably not enough to develop much core. Then again, perhaps it was part of the plan.

MS often says if she were not ski racing, she would be in college playing tennis, or soccer.

 

[karlo]

I never use 'quiet' or 'still'

it can look like the upper body is "still" but in reality

a quite upper body is something you get more or less automatically

having a quiet body even if it's robotic might be a good start.

One could develop stable upper body

the term "quiet upper body"

The still upper body... is one of those things that an observer would notice but make no sense for a skier to attempt to actually do, per se.

Another thread resurrected memory of a very short, 1-2 seconds clip, in the movie Steep. I think what is seen at 1'46", in this trailer illustrates still and quiet, achieved with discipline. The upper body and COM is on a very smooth trajectory, and it remains still and vertical relative to the slope as the lower body angles to the slope, putting the skis on edge.


Going to the other (ahem) extreme, the hop turns at 1'04" of this video is, I think, another illustration of still and quiet, relatively speaking, upper body.


I do not know how myself, but perhaps these and other videos can help folks put to words what still and quiet mean.

Going back to the topic of this thread, I think that if MS were a monkey, this would be her. Very dynamic, with still and quiet upper body, except... is it shoulder socket rotation I'm seeing?

 

[markojp]

... of this video is, I think, another illustration of still and quiet, relatively speaking, upper body.

... can help folks put to words what still and quiet mean.

with still and quiet upper body, except... is it shoulder socket rotation I'm seeing?

And only once more, (I promise!!! ) the word I prefer is 'disciplined'. Every skier in the videos above skis with upper body discipline. Use whatever word you like. I find in coaching/instructing that using 'still' and 'quiet' often results in classic 'pushing the PSIA shopping cart' skiing that is very far removed from the vids or any good skiing for that matter. 'Quiet' and 'still' result in stasis for many people who are skiing at level 4-8. 'Disciplined' expects controlled and directed movement in concert with D.I.R.T. to make great skiing happen. Sorry to be such a putz about this, but it really does make a difference in people's understanding of functional, dynamic movement. Your MMV, and I'm sure for people with more highly developed skill sets and strong proprioception, any word or phrase will work. OK, end of small 'r' rant. I'm out .


FWIW, free ski wise, I like this one a lot:

 

[James]

Going back to the topic of this thread, I think that if MS were a monkey, this would be her. Very dynamic, with still and quiet upper body, except... is it shoulder socket rotation I'm seeing?

Having not studied monkeys, I have no idea. White monkeys seem pretty unusual to begin with no?
What if she were a whale? A Great White Shark? A bird, a plane....

Parsing "still" or "quiet" versus "disciplined" just seems....idiotic. I mean really, are we all that narrow minded we can't make the leap? It's the same thing. I get teaching someone is one thing, doing it another but have some faith in common sense and the human brain. <rant off>

 

[markojp]

Idiotic. Cool. Even after the 'IMHO and coaching experience' and busting out the happy emoticon prefaces. I sure as hell don't expect others to share my opinion, because well, that's just like my opinion, man. Seems instructional threads are what they are... not much better than political forums.

 

[James]

Idiotic. Cool. Even after the 'IMHO and coaching experience' and busting out the happy emoticon prefaces. I sure as hell don't expect others to share my opinion, because well, that's just like my opinion, man. Seems instructional threads are what they are... not much better than political forums.

Heh, yeah that rug really tied the room together..
"Idiotic" - more of a conversation ...enhancer than an absolute. It's like if there's weeds growing all over a bridge and you spray them with kerosene and light it. If the bridge goes up too, well it needed replacement. The monkey video didn't get the term because he's the new guy and well what can you say to that?
With some exceptions, Imho = imo = imnsho - all really the same. I could say "I think" with that but it's just asking for slack or an out. - Imnsho/imho/imo of course. See, redundant.

Btw, I've been told by Phil we ski alike or have similar approaches or something.

The rug really tied the room together...
- Warning! An F- Bomb Salad -
After the idiotic comedy, have a song from maybe the next Joni Mitchell-

 

[LiquidFeet]

You are flaming, dude.

 

[Zentune]

Quiet and still are not good descriptors for the upper body imo because no part of the body is an island. If I elicit a grf that passes through my foot and up my leg to the hip, the chain reaction does not stop there.....in my experience as an ex-racer and instrucor/trainer, "quiet" can bring about more of a posed, robotic "instructor-y" look, when in reality skiing is fluid and dynamic.

Some examples of the active upper body whilst the legs turn include, but are not limited to, pelvic movement in all 3 planes, spinal movement in all 3 planes, rib cage (that's right!) movement in all three planes, etc....hardly what is call "quiet".

zenny

 

[Mike King]

And when Giulia and companion where skiing that narrow couloir with hop turns, every turn started with upper body rotation. That's not what most folk think about when thinking about a "quiet," "still," or "disciplined" upper body. But there's a role for upper body rotation, and that circumstance was definitely one of them.

Isn't what we really want to see is upper/lower body separation with an appropriate involvement of the upper body? We shouldn't be looking for the upper body to be a statue. But we shouldn't see unwarranted movement in the upper body that creates other forces that have to be managed.

When I watch Mikeala's skiing, what I generally see is that there's only the movement that is required. After all, movement is slow.

Mike

 

[karlo]

And when Giulia and companion where skiing that narrow couloir with hop turns, every turn started with upper body rotation

I told myself I wouldn't insert myself anymore on this subject, but you hooked me. I see something quite different from Giulia, a concerted effort to keep the upper body quiet, best exemplified by her last hop turn.

Anyway, IMO, I think that when folks say quiet and still, it is not in the context of the viewer, but in the context of what the skier feels or endeavors to feel, particularly going into, during, and leaving the transition, one's upper body and core freely and unperturbed, flying down the hill, almost a freefall.

What if she were a whale? A Great White Shark? A bird, a plane....

I think the monkey must be feeling that quiet and stillness, as do the breaching whales and sharks, and diving birds and planes, flying through the air, as we do, or endeavor to when we ski.

 

[James]

Quiet and still are not good descriptors for the upper body imo because no part of the body is an island. If I elicit a grf that passes through my foot and up my leg to the hip, the chain reaction does not stop there.....in my experience as an ex-racer and instrucor/trainer, "quiet" can bring about more of a posed, robotic "instructor-y" look, when in reality skiing is fluid and dynamic.

Some examples of the active upper body whilst the legs turn include, but are not limited to, pelvic movement in all 3 planes, spinal movement in all 3 planes, rib cage (that's right!) movement in all three planes, etc....hardly what is call "quiet".

zenny

Not sure where "quiet" ever got associated with inactive or numb. The body can't even stand still ordering lunch at McDonalds without being active.
"Quiet" is an overall descriptor of looks, not a description of muscle activity. To be quiet involves moving the right parts at the right time. And that means moving now to put oneself in the right position later. That is likely the biggest requirement of a quiet upper body. The opposite would be a flailing upper body.

This tennis article from 2005 makes a similar point about the great, but apparently "robots", of tennis. Quiet upper body is related to balance.
---------------------------------------------
How 'Body Sense' Makes Better Tennis Players
by Rhys Thomas

...John McEnroe, Miloslav Mecir, and Marcello Rios led a revolution in which players made the game look easy by "quieting" the upper body during even the most aggressive strokes. This allowed them to play with completely vertical spines and relaxed arms. Rotation around this vertical axis increased power in their games and let their arms accelerate at the ball with much less raw strength than previous players required.

These players helped to create the footwork and balance that every top player uses today. They did not listen to coaches tell them to stop and hit, only to have to recover later. Instead, they listened to their "balance," began to recover before they hit the ball, and were on their way back to center at the contact point, making their movements seamless. ...

In the new millennium, Roger Federer has raised the bar even further. While his strokes are beautiful and his movement fluid, his most renowned trait is his ability to keep his upper body "quiet," his head still, and his neck relaxed. With little or no head movement, his vision is better, he has a better sense of where he is on the court in relation to the ball, and he can coordinate his body movements effortlessly. In short, Federer plays tennis in complete balance. ...
--------------------
http://www.ultimatebalance.com/art2_tennisone.html

I saw Federer play at the US Open a few years ago. The way he moves is very deceptive. He covers ground without seemingly trying to. Very smooth. Going up to net suddenly he's there. The decpetion is perhaps from a very stable, quiet upper body. It is not weaving and bobbing around as he runs forward. As we tend to focus more on the body than the legs it looks like he's gliding or not trying that hard but he gets there very quickly.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Anyone know this trick? The way to balance a yardstick (or anything else) on your finger
is to focus entirely on trying to keep the top of that thing motionless, or "quiet."