Drill Deconstructing Mikaela Shiffrin slalom turns

[ScotsSkier]

Do mother and daughter love drilling, or do they love racing? They aren't the same thing. I think they love racing, and simply work, ski drills amongst other things, to achieve that. What is special is the common love for racing between parent and child, and the love for learning. Those who have that, it wouldn't matter if the child makes the USST, much less NCAA. So, for those that dropped out because they feel they can't match MS, they were in it for the wrong reasons.

If you look at how she limited her races when younger, and also how she limited herself to slalom when she started on the WC, I suspect she enjoys drills more than racing! Well, let me clarify a bit. IMHO she likes drilling to put herself into a position to win. A lot (most?) of us race for the adrenaline drive and to challenge ourselves. MS never comes across to me as doing it for fun/a rush or anything other than validating that she is better through her training regime. The difference between her and the other girls on the podium at the SQuaw WC races in the media room was huge. fun does not really seem to be in her vocabulary. Everything is controlled to the nth degree.

I see similar things with some of my masters athletes. They train endlessly looking to improve technique and plan to enter races when they think they have got it down to perfection. However when they are in the cours they just struggle to push it and take the necessary risks. The rest of us are driven by the rush of adrenaline and realize that race results are determined by the clock rather than style points. Not necessarily correct either wAy of course

 

[razie]

Interesting as up here in Canada the ACA is recommending a strong preference to more GS skiing at the U12/U10 level, with SL to be driven in the way of KK vs. loads of pure SL. I don't know the full extent of the decision but would guess it might stem from SL being such a specialty event now with less and less in common with GS and speed; I'd make a case that GS and the turn shape/technique is more of the foundation of skiing than current SL technique. That and at the younger level we've seen better skill development (turn in, proper pressure, angulation, etc.) come from GS training vs. SL where kids can get away with a lot of bad habits and still be quick.

Interesting to hear about the diverging philosophies.

Hmm - where do you get this? On the contrary, the LTSD/Aim2Win is clear that "we must improve at the Slalom discipline" and that "to do this we must stress it in the early years of development etc".
It's been my experience that SL is harder to do correctly. A lot of kids just slam and slide - that's not good SL though.

 

[razie]

Razie, when you say they spend a lot of time in the gym, what muscles are you referring to in relation to your post?

like markojp said, all of them - but I was thinking about the core more at that point.

 

[Josh Matta]

Absolutely amazing athlete.

she isnt naturally athletic......she has created herself a strong body, and drill her self into the doing the right things basically all the time on skis. I you follow her on instagram she is a quite a kultz when it come to non skiing activities....and watch her on the pump track, she isnt all that good at it...

I am not knocking Mikela, I am just saying Mikela is a great example of how a WC athlete can be a a combination of parental influence and the athletes own inner determination. She has become the best tech skier female and arguable o any gender, despite being not all that naturally coordinated. She should inspire anyone who realize its their choices and methods holding them back, and not how they were born, or how old they are.

 

[Muleski]

she isnt naturally athletic......she has created herself a strong body, and drill her self into the doing the right things basically all the time on skis.

You're right on this, Josh. I had been under the impression that she was a great natural athlete, and when she started to ramp up her GS, and start her SG push I learned that what I assumed was a tremendous natural feel for the snow, natural touch, etc. is all pretty much learned and acquired through those drills. Though nobody "advertises that." She's certainly quite athletic. I know people who coached her in soccer, for example. I have seen her on the tennis court. She's absolutely not the top one-tenth of one percent athlete that you might expect. She's very lean and strong, and she is a great student.

Now, as long as we are on this topic, she is a tremendous athlete compared to Ms. Vonn. She loves to play tennis and golf, and she is no natural...at all. A few years ago, I recall a USST coach who was quite frustrated with some of her agility work making the comment that when she retired, she might need to hire somebody to help her walk across the street so that she would not get hit by a bus when tripping over her two left feet while crossing the street. Kind of harsh.

However, being the best speed skier of all time is not based on pure athleticism. At all. I always say she is purpose built for the task. When she was a young teen,she was a really exceptional SL skier, and even today she can ski WC level SL. And she has won a GS. She does have great touch. Bit not high end athleticism.

Resi and Mancuso are both seriously athletic. Julia, incredibly so.

The part of the Mikaela equation that is SO remarkable is how fast and how young this all clicked into place. And that timetable has really created a fair amount of havoc.

 

[hbear]

Hmm - where do you get this? On the contrary, the LTSD/Aim2Win is clear that "we must improve at the Slalom discipline" and that "to do this we must stress it in the early years of development etc".
It's been my experience that SL is harder to do correctly. A lot of kids just slam and slide - that's not good SL though.

New ACA LTAD plan coming out.......know many that consulted in the process.

 

[hbear]

Yes, mentioned a lot of times by those in the know. Both MS and LV excel at working hard.....actually with the goal of outworking anybody else on tour.
The "secret" is hard work for both of them.

 

[Swede]

Thanks @Muleski, I always love reading your posts for such unique insight and insider knowledge. A take-away regarding becoming a better skier in this post is drill. I have been thinking of working on level 1, 2 & 3 drills with my 8 yr. old next year, if she wants to. If she wants to race, I'll support her but I'm not going to encourage her (or my son). The more I read these posts; I realize how tough, demanding and physically dangerous it is. I would love to be tech support though. My thought is she may want to become an instructor in her teens. I see youtube vids of MS drilling all the time and I just assumed everyone did that at WC level. I know my skiing will improve with drills and know that my kids skiing would quickly reach next level if we drilled for a 1/2 hr of our ski time. Cheers

Go for it Chris. If your daughter wants to try racing and you have the opportunity to offer her that, do it. My oldest just finnished her 1st U16 season and there have been crashes but zero serious injuries. It's a fantastic activity if you have a good club and a perfect prep if she later wants to become an instructor. My daughter might take that route, they accept students over here at 16 so another season befor that.
But it will be a family commitment that takes a lot of time and effort if she continues past U12.

 

[karlo]

MS never comes across to me as doing it for fun/a rush or anything other than validating that she is better through her training regime.

I think if that were true, she would no longer be racing, because, don't you think, she has long ago validated that point.

 

[karlo]

great natural athlete

And JM's "naturally athletic"

Let's think about that. If athletic is a physical trait, ok. But is it? I think that there is no such thing as a great natural athlete. Great athlete's are those with the necessary physical requirements who have the discipline, mental strength, and LOVE, to excel at what they do. And great is relative, being relative to attributes and resources available.

MS is certainly natural. I think of a tree, with Mommy and Daddy tree. They are in this perfect world, growing and learning together. I think they would be together, doing what they love, even if MS were not a WC racer. Perhaps they would be mother-daughter ski instructors!

I know what you all mean by "natural". Just pointing out there is more to think about. And, as for "great", I think you're all great.

 

[markojp]

IMHO, people are most certainly born with (or without) both interest and ability. We're all just wired differently. Sure, good ability can be made great with effort and passion, but I think many of us have kids that we recognize early don't share our passion for a particular physical activity, if any at all. I've always been pretty competent at physical things, but often not interested in or quite good enough to make that top (national) level. No matter how hard I trained and rode, I just wasn't on the pro cycling contract path, nor MLB, or NFL. There are people who are just simply physically stronger, taller, more intellectually/mentally pre-disposed out of the gate... the kid who walks into the weight room and benches 275 the first day.

That said, all the natural ability in the world doesn't get you anywhere without the stars of exposure and opportunity aligning. The economic price of entry for skiing and especially ski racing ensure that a lot of pretty average athletes are 'optimized' to the best of their potential. Mikaela is such a singularly focused athlete that I doubt she spends enough time doing other sports with the same intent to come anywhere close to succeeding at a similar level. If you want to see something painful, watch a group of good ski racers play a game of pick up basketball. On the other hand, Stenmark has a tremendous vertical leap, and Klammer pretty much kicked everyone's butt when they had 'battle of the stars' TV comps with pro athletes/medal winners from different sports competing in random physical events. I'm also sure we've all known folks growing up who 'had it', but didn't 'make it'... in the end, they can up the outcome odds with either natural ability, money, exposure, etc..., but predicting 'who' will make the show is very difficult.

 

[karlo]

Not only do I love watching MS ski, I love when she shares her experiences and insights. This was posted not too long ago re Rhythm and more.

 

[James]

Great athlete's are those with the necessary physical requirements who have the discipline, mental strength, and LOVE, to excel at what they do. And great is relative, being relative to attributes and resources available.

Andre Agassi hated tennis when he was at the top. He even lied about loving it to Charlie Rose when Rose, in typical I'll give you the answer I want fashion, asked "Do you love it?" Agassi said yes, but he didn't. This is in Agassi's book the name of which I forget.

Even when she is skiing VERY dynamically, putting a lot of energy into working a GS ski, etc., she just looks incredibly smooth, very calm, and balanced. When I have been on the hill, I've almost been fooled as to how much speed she is carrying. Her skis are glued to the surface with perfect pressure, and she makes it look effortless.

Just seeing her for parts of a few runs on one day I'd agree with this. We saw her ripping arcs up on Lenawee face at Abasin first. Very complete c type arcs and quite tight, much less radius than what we later learned were 30m gs skis. Very, very smooth like it was nothing. Mom doesn't attempt those turns. Basically they would stop for 15sec to a minute and discuss things. Sometimes mom was using hands to indicate something. They were very very good at managing the traffic. It was fairly crowded. Lower down particularly the last pitch of Sundance (green rated but really a solid blue even black at some places) she made fast arcs some runs on one foot. It was difficult to follow to see her due to the traffic and the speed at which she covered ground. Got down very quickly but looked like nothing.

It's a bit like seeing Roger Federer cover ground on the tennis court. It doesn't look like he's doing much but all of a sudden he's gone from the baseline to in front of the service box in a few steps. Doesn't seem like he's running but he covers the distance very very quickly.

Mikaela was on 188cm/30m gs skis as was mom but different ones. Mom's were Atomic red with white in middle, Mikaela's were white with red lettering and a carbon? element that went from the toe to maybe 4-6 inches from where the tip curled up. Dad, geez he's thin, was on 178cm gs skis of I think of radius not sure. Mikaela's boots were red with Atomic labels saying Redster 170.
You can see them here in the photo of @Drahtguy Kevin. Mom is in the purple. Dad may have left by this point. Mikaela is fairly slight. Most were surprised at how small she is for someone who generates such large forces.

Mom's skis:

And here they are with random guy on...Soul 7's. This about quarter to 1.

WRT her greater speed than most in slalom, if you overlay her with her closest competitors, you will see that she gets her ski back in the fall-line much more quickly than anyone else, she is already headed downhill wile the others are still coming across the hill. To me this is being achieved by basically nixing the last 25% of the turn. Instead of the ski completing 180degrees she is basically chopping it off at 135 degrees and pointing them down to start the new direction change.

That's one thing I remember being struck by when standing on the course in an Ncaa race several years ago. The guys who were fast got on and off the edges very quickly and spent a lot of time in the fall line. It's risky. We greatly underestimate the difficulty in slalom as the events with speed get so much attention. But keeping skis in the fall line on a pitch with a forest of gates to blow down is different type of insane. At the high levels it really is on the edge of crazy.

was Arapahoe Basin and she was with her mom and dad. Mom was coaching, dad was watching (I went and looked at pics of her dad to see if it was him).

I really would not have guessed that was dad.

 

[karlo]

Andre Agassi hated tennis when he was at the top.

Was he great when he was at the top? He won me over when he came around. Did you watch his farewell match? Wasn't it amazing? Still brings tears.

Anyway, to me, MS is great also because she shares the happiness and the love. Check out her Facebook profile. I particularly like her video sharing her experience at Ohau,

https://video.fewr1-2.fna.fbcdn.net...=45aec876e705d1ee6aee220e9499ce70&oe=591D39F8

Not sure if this works for you. I had to sign in to view.

 

[Jamt]

That's one thing I remember being struck by when standing on the course in an Ncaa race several years ago. The guys who were fast got on and off the edges very quickly and spent a lot of time in the fall line. It's risky. We greatly underestimate the difficulty in slalom as the events with speed get so much attention. But keeping skis in the fall line on a pitch with a forest of gates to blow down is different type of insane. At the high levels it really is on the edge of crazy.
I really would not have guessed that was dad.

Could you clarify what is meant with "Spending a lot of time in the fall line"? To me that sounds like you would spend more time going straight down the hill, in the fall line.
On and off edges quickly sounds like you would spend less time going down the fall line?

 

[4ster]

Could you clarify what is meant with "Spending a lot of time in the fall line"? To me that sounds like you would spend more time going straight down the hill, in the fall line.
On and off edges quickly sounds like you would spend less time going down the fall line?

By getting more direction at the top of the turn (early edge, pressure) = less time, energy grinding the bottom of the turn. She can let the skis run longer without deceleration.
More efficient, smoother line, faster time. Win, win, win !
At least that's my take.

 

[James]

Was he {Agassi} great when he was at the top?

Not sure how you're using the word "great". I happened to see his match against James Blake at the US Open in NY in '06 or '07 I think. It was a great match and went till nearly 1:30 am. New York loved Agassi, at least later in his career, so the great majority was for him and wanted to see him go to the finals. Blake was from CT so a hometown boy of sorts and had good support. By that time in his career I think Agassi had accepted his role in tennis and was somewhat in awe of his effect on people and respected that. He could have gone the route of "people are stupid" but didn't and genuinely seemed to love the crowds that came out. Whether he still "hated" tennis at that point I don't remember from the book, but I doubt he loved it. Perhaps his wife Stefi Graf helped in that area. I suspect Mikaela is more like her but know little about Stefi other than she was more successful than Andre in terms of wins. Maybe @SBrown knows.

Could you clarify what is meant with "Spending a lot of time in the fall line"? To me that sounds like you would spend more time going straight down the hill, in the fall line.
On and off edges quickly sounds like you would spend less time going down the fall line?

Yes, you're right that wasn't a good way to put it. The top ones spend as little time as possible on the edges. It's more a commitment to enter the fall line even when self preservation would say no. But on edges then off quickly. I suppose we could argue if they're cutting off the bottom or top of the turn, or maybe it's both. The slower ones enter the turn fiighting for control. Even at wcup level commenaters will use the word "hacking" at a course. Faster ones sometimes might look slower because they're making fewer movements.

You can see a huge difference in boys versus girls in this area in high school racing. In general, boys are much more likely to enter steep pitches committed to the fall line and attacking. Looking for speed less concerned with safety. Girls will take a less direct and more hesitant line. More about safety. Obviously there are exceptions.

I don't understand this Mikaela is fast because "she carves the top of the turn". Perhaps it's a different definition of top but I rarely see a top- turns in slalom are rarely 'C' shaped.

As for upper body stability I don't think it's an illusion. It doesn't mean it doesn't move though it may look that way. Whether one gets there by using words of "disciplined" or "still" is probably what resonates with the individual. Off snow training probably is the way to develop it. I don't know what Mikaela does but someone like Felix Neureuther uses slack lines a lot which necessitates a stable core. Probably riding dirt bikes and mountain bikes helps too as one needs to commit quickly and get in a position which will yield the direction change a short time later.

Miakaela in slo mo 2013

Felix Neureuther in super slo 300fps, 2010

Same race, maybe not same run, full speed.

Neureuther's mother, Rosi Mittermaier, was a multiple Olympic gold medal alpine skier and his father raced slalom on the world cup.

 

[markojp]

I feel very strongly that 'still' and 'quiet' cause way more problems than it solves, and truncates our ability to grasp the importance of developing a FULL range of motion using the entire body to optimise snow/ski interaction. Anyhow, I'll leave it there as opinions clearly differ.

 

[Jamt]

I feel very strongly that 'still' and 'quiet' cause way more problems than it solves, and truncates our ability to grasp the importance of developing a FULL range of motion using the entire body to optimise snow/ski interaction. Anyhow, I'll leave it there as opinions clearly differ.

Agree and I think that a quite upper body is something you get more or less automatically if you have good balance from the feet up.

 

[karlo]

'still' and 'quiet'

Was it you who wrote it, disciplined? That is the better word. The true, absolute still and quiet, straight down the fall line, is actually an amazing experience though.