I'm jealous.
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Drill Deconstructing Mikaela Shiffrin slalom turns
- Thread starter 1chris5
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I'm jealous.
I'm not sure being low is her point. Perhaps the point is more about quietness of the upper body as her legs extend out (tall, but to the side), then flex and move under in the transition. To best understand what I mean, get on an elliptical and pump the legs while keeping the upper body, waist up, perfectly quiet, no up and down, no swaying sideways. It's hard; I can't do a whole workout session that way. But, I am convinced that doing this, whether on an elliptical, biking, running, or walking, has helped my skiing enormously. And, I also have a better wiggle which, on a powder day, gets me through very tight trees where it is still untracked, cuz most folks don't wiggle in powder, much less wiggle.
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Yup. That's kind'a what I was trying to say, being low (i.e. short legs) is just a result of her flexing out of the turn (which goes to being light on her edges). Then the legs can extend again.
The stillness of the upper body - we hear much about it, but it's largely an optical illusion and I think it would be misguided as an instruction. I rarely use that - and when I point it out, I make sure to underline that it's just the result of very well timed but strong movements to tip the body the other way and rotate the body the other way (lift the inside hip and keep it moving forward, if you want). It's partly why they spend so much time in the gym. It's also a direct result of flexing out of the turn, as opposed to a hard hit, sending the hips up.
The still upper body... is one of those things that an observer would notice but make no sense for a skier to attempt to actually do, per se.
The stillness of the upper body - we hear much about it, but it's largely an optical illusion and I think it would be misguided as an instruction. I rarely use that - and when I point it out, I make sure to underline that it's just the result of very well timed but strong movements to tip the body the other way and rotate the body the other way (lift the inside hip and keep it moving forward, if you want). It's partly why they spend so much time in the gym. It's also a direct result of flexing out of the turn, as opposed to a hard hit, sending the hips up.
The still upper body... is one of those things that an observer would notice but make no sense for a skier to attempt to actually do, per se.
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I don't think it is an optical illusion, for instance when you want your COM to get from point A to point B in either the most direct (fastest) line or arc. Or if you want transition to the other edge really, really fast; then, the solid, unmoving (quiet) upper body and COM is the lever. Anyway, that's the best way I know how to describe my personal experience.
I vaguely recall reading that Shiffrin unicycled when she was young. I think that would be equivalent to the exercise
I described.
I don't follow the A to B, but since the upper and lower body are connected quite strongly, it seems to me most natural for the upper body to incline and rotate with the lower body - that's why it's the most common "fault" out there. I don't see separation to come very naturally and nor is it effortless.
I hear you though - it feels that way often and it even is that way at times, but only when the feet are unloaded and for a very quick switch and for a small range of motion (like in a flush/wiggle perhaps). As soon as you try to build significant angles, with the feet "inclined" to the side, the body will lean inside if you don't very strongly counter-balance that - and that effort must start well ahead of time since the muscles are big and strong.
cheers
I hear you though - it feels that way often and it even is that way at times, but only when the feet are unloaded and for a very quick switch and for a small range of motion (like in a flush/wiggle perhaps). As soon as you try to build significant angles, with the feet "inclined" to the side, the body will lean inside if you don't very strongly counter-balance that - and that effort must start well ahead of time since the muscles are big and strong.
cheers
Maybe we are saying the same thing differently. A is where one is, B is where one wants to be, with a line, arc, or some envisioned path. For me, my COM is the reference point, so it is my COM going from A to B; everything else does what is required. So, any wobbling of the COM along the path is loss of upper body stillness, and inefficient. I don't view it as "very well timed but strong movements to tip the body the other way". I view it as foot, ankle, leg, hip movements to quietly keep COM (me, myself, and I) on the desired path.
I guess it is perspective and what the mind is focused on.
Interesting as up here in Canada the ACA is recommending a strong preference to more GS skiing at the U12/U10 level, with SL to be driven in the way of KK vs. loads of pure SL. I don't know the full extent of the decision but would guess it might stem from SL being such a specialty event now with less and less in common with GS and speed; I'd make a case that GS and the turn shape/technique is more of the foundation of skiing than current SL technique. That and at the younger level we've seen better skill development (turn in, proper pressure, angulation, etc.) come from GS training vs. SL where kids can get away with a lot of bad habits and still be quick.
Interesting to hear about the diverging philosophies.
Personally, I never use 'quiet' or 'still' upper body. I use 'disciplined'. IMHO, it's a very important distinction as the words 'still' and quiet' often lead to bound up (constipated) skiing that severely limits the functional range of motion of many aspiring racers, instructors, and tech skiers. Show me a racer that is going for 'still', and I'll show you one that is slow at best, but more likely to just plain old DNF.
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Personally, I never use 'quiet' or 'still' upper body. I use 'disciplined'. IMHO, it's a very important distinction as the words 'still' and quiet' often lead to bound up (constipated) skiing that severely limits the functional range of motion of many aspiring racers, instructors, and tech skiers. Show me a racer that is going for 'still', and I'll show you one that is slow at best, but more likely just plain old DNF.
I'm with you on this Marko. I think of it more as keeping the upper body pretty much in the fall line with the skis rolling across underneath and basically automatically applying counter and pressure to the ski and driving the inside hip forward. When the skis are effectively rolled across it can look like the upper body is "still" but in reality there is a whole lot more going on from the waist down and this separation is enabling the pressure on the ski
related to this "still" upper body, one of my biggest peeves with athletes is basically "going to sleep" between gates. i.e they make the turn, come across the hill then think about the new turn. You can SEE the time loss. I try to get them to focus on making the transition to the new ski as you come through the gate and then visibly driving towards the next gate and you then have much more ability to pick your optimal line. The increased urgency helps keep the mental focus on looking for speed as well.
Wow, magnificent skiing.
In the first flush video what stands out to me in the direction of her center of mass. She is moving in a straight line down the flush gates, only her skis move from side to side to clear the gates.
In the second video I'm am struck by the intensity of her practice. She appears to be an adherent of the statement, "Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." She also knows "practice makes permanent." Every move is smooth and clean, even the exercises. Beyond impressive. These videos show a professional that absolutely loves what she does.
In the first flush video what stands out to me in the direction of her center of mass. She is moving in a straight line down the flush gates, only her skis move from side to side to clear the gates.
In the second video I'm am struck by the intensity of her practice. She appears to be an adherent of the statement, "Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." She also knows "practice makes permanent." Every move is smooth and clean, even the exercises. Beyond impressive. These videos show a professional that absolutely loves what she does.
Razie, when you say they spend a lot of time in the gym, what muscles are you referring to in relation to your post?Yup. That's kind'a what I was trying to say, being low (i.e. short legs) is just a result of her flexing out of the turn (which goes to being light on her edges). Then the legs can extend again.
The stillness of the upper body - we hear much about it, but it's largely an optical illusion and I think it would be misguided as an instruction. I rarely use that - and when I point it out, I make sure to underline that it's just the result of very well timed but strong movements to tip the body the other way and rotate the body the other way (lift the inside hip and keep it moving forward, if you want). It's partly why they spend so much time in the gym. It's also a direct result of flexing out of the turn, as opposed to a hard hit, sending the hips up.
The still upper body... is one of those things that an observer would notice but make no sense for a skier to attempt to actually do, per se.
That is the de-facto standard here in Sweden as well, and in many other European countries. That is why it is so interesting that Kirk has taken a different direction.
I can see that certain drills for sure are better with SL skis, and some with GS skis.
Absolutely amazing athlete.
I checked back in here, and this might be interesting to some. Kind of frames up her actual skiing, and how it originated, etc.
Mikaela's parents both love the sport. OK...are obsessed with it. Like more than a few parents who did not have the opportunity to race at a truly high level, that was NEVER going to be an issue for their kids. Her dad skied on the team at Dartmouth, but I don't believe ever made a carnival start. No problem, he ended up in med school. Her mother raced on a high school team, and really got into it after college getting involved as a master.
As parents, they were raising serious ski racers. I contrast that with either exposing your kids to skiing, or raising "skiers." Some fault them for being the way they are. Not sure why. They have two pretty great adult children. And the ski plan worked. They worked hard and had the resources to do it. Easy to throw rocks. BTW, it quickly became the dream of both kids. You hear that all the time.
So, in case of Mikaela, you have a young lady who was on skis as soon as she could walk. Before she was two. Her parents believed {as many race coach parents do} that she should never be taught to ski in a wedge. So, she was pretty much carving her turns by four. FOUR. She learned to ski in CO, then moved to NH, and onto Burke, VT. She was home schooled and training with the older kids at Burke before she was old enough to enroll. He brother was enrolled there. She has skied almost every day of the winter all of her life, doing drills, drills and more drills. Her mother loves her drills. That is pretty much the joy and fun for them. It's unusual. They love it. Time together. Our adult kids were pretty exceptional racers, and we love to ski together. My wife and I have race backgrounds, as did our parents. But we were never on this kind of program.
She became a huge deal at 12, at Burke, based on her potential. She was developed and trained to not just make the USST, not just make the WC, but win on the WC, and win THE WC. Not the norm. But the plan. All along. Trained pretty differently than anybody in the country. And...it has worked.
She had very compartmentalized training, she had specific periods of rest, and she had relatively speaking fewer race starts. Racing against her age group, taking a couple of days to do so, etc. was considered to be a poor use of time. No need.
Talk to anybody who saw this kid ski at 8, 10, 12, {that is anybody who is a coach} and they have never forgotten it. Chip Knight, long term USST SL specialist and now the head of USST development tells a story frequently. He had retired, and was coaching at Burke. He saw this little kid, who had perfect technical form, and the drills she was doing were the exact same ones that he had been doing the year before when he was near the top of the World Cup SL start list. Chip being at the time a 225 lb beast.
Talk to those who were there to witness her winning the J3 Junior Olympic SL, by I think 12 seconds, and they will say the same. Nobody will forget it. The kids she beat were darn good. Future USST. NCAA. Amazing coming out party.
So when I have watched her training out of a course, what I have observed is her just getting back to her basics, making sure that she is comfortable and centered over her skis. Make sure that she is feeling the subtleties of the surface. That kind of "stuff."
Not totally unusual, in that a lot of athletes will take a half day to free ski when they feel off. But unusual in the purpose, and the frequency.
Frankly a lot of her drills and such have also been devoted to helping get her equipment dialed as well. A lot of boot issues to work through in recent years. Many. Not so many ski issues.
I do remember when Dykster was readying her to race WC SG, and was working on terrain, absorption, being comfortable in the air and such. I don't think a lot of the coaching was related to the skiing, other than the nuances of SG. Reminding her to have elbows in, hands up, etc.
No talk of making too many specific body movements, etc. as I recall. So for me, I have a very hard time breaking her skiing down that way, and suggesting that anybody try to "do what she does" to improve their skiing other than in the broadest terms. Problably because she is not us.
Some really good points have been noted here. Even when she is skiing VERY dynamically, putting a lot of energy into working a GS ski, etc., she just looks incredibly smooth, very calm, and balanced. When I have been on the hill, I've almost been fooled as to how much speed she is carrying. Her skis are glued to the surface with perfect pressure, and she makes it look effortless.
I recall seeing her at maybe 10 at the Dartmouth Skiway. A friend pointed she and her mom out to me. She was just amazing. And I should add that I have seen plenty of exceptional kids that age. A whole bunch who went on to the WC.
A natural, with who knows how many thousands of hours and miles of drills. It's all built into her.,
I know some top notch youth coaches who spent a huge amount of time trying to explain to parents just how unique this once a generation skier is. And to calm down in terms of not being on her timeline. It's kind of a blessing and curse to have her in this country.
Interesting distinction in terms of describing calm/still/quiet versus disciplined, etc. in terms of her upper body. I was quickly typing on my phone and not wordsmithing too much. It makes sense. I have heard people working with her use the still-like terms, but they aren't teaching, etc.
There is obviously great upper/lower body separation. Essential. Nobody can ski at this level without it. Once again, it just looks natural and effortless with her.
As far as my comment about SSCV's apparent focus on SL as the main building block, please do not read too much into that. Although they are arguably the most successful and best resourced club in the world these days, it's ONE club. Does not mean that any others are going to blindly follow suit. Kirk Dwyer's record is indisputable when it comes to developing athletes. The numbers of skiers at Burke who have moved on to national teams, and the WC, let alone the hundreds of NCAA athletes is incredible. He firmly believes that it all should start with SL proficiency.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Many are in both camps. Keep in mind we are talking about junior development....not specialization at the WC.
MS is also, BTW, generally considered to be the hardest worker on tour among the women, which is saying something.
Very unique in every way.
Mikaela's parents both love the sport. OK...are obsessed with it. Like more than a few parents who did not have the opportunity to race at a truly high level, that was NEVER going to be an issue for their kids. Her dad skied on the team at Dartmouth, but I don't believe ever made a carnival start. No problem, he ended up in med school. Her mother raced on a high school team, and really got into it after college getting involved as a master.
As parents, they were raising serious ski racers. I contrast that with either exposing your kids to skiing, or raising "skiers." Some fault them for being the way they are. Not sure why. They have two pretty great adult children. And the ski plan worked. They worked hard and had the resources to do it. Easy to throw rocks. BTW, it quickly became the dream of both kids. You hear that all the time.
So, in case of Mikaela, you have a young lady who was on skis as soon as she could walk. Before she was two. Her parents believed {as many race coach parents do} that she should never be taught to ski in a wedge. So, she was pretty much carving her turns by four. FOUR. She learned to ski in CO, then moved to NH, and onto Burke, VT. She was home schooled and training with the older kids at Burke before she was old enough to enroll. He brother was enrolled there. She has skied almost every day of the winter all of her life, doing drills, drills and more drills. Her mother loves her drills. That is pretty much the joy and fun for them. It's unusual. They love it. Time together. Our adult kids were pretty exceptional racers, and we love to ski together. My wife and I have race backgrounds, as did our parents. But we were never on this kind of program.
She became a huge deal at 12, at Burke, based on her potential. She was developed and trained to not just make the USST, not just make the WC, but win on the WC, and win THE WC. Not the norm. But the plan. All along. Trained pretty differently than anybody in the country. And...it has worked.
She had very compartmentalized training, she had specific periods of rest, and she had relatively speaking fewer race starts. Racing against her age group, taking a couple of days to do so, etc. was considered to be a poor use of time. No need.
Talk to anybody who saw this kid ski at 8, 10, 12, {that is anybody who is a coach} and they have never forgotten it. Chip Knight, long term USST SL specialist and now the head of USST development tells a story frequently. He had retired, and was coaching at Burke. He saw this little kid, who had perfect technical form, and the drills she was doing were the exact same ones that he had been doing the year before when he was near the top of the World Cup SL start list. Chip being at the time a 225 lb beast.
Talk to those who were there to witness her winning the J3 Junior Olympic SL, by I think 12 seconds, and they will say the same. Nobody will forget it. The kids she beat were darn good. Future USST. NCAA. Amazing coming out party.
So when I have watched her training out of a course, what I have observed is her just getting back to her basics, making sure that she is comfortable and centered over her skis. Make sure that she is feeling the subtleties of the surface. That kind of "stuff."
Not totally unusual, in that a lot of athletes will take a half day to free ski when they feel off. But unusual in the purpose, and the frequency.
Frankly a lot of her drills and such have also been devoted to helping get her equipment dialed as well. A lot of boot issues to work through in recent years. Many. Not so many ski issues.
I do remember when Dykster was readying her to race WC SG, and was working on terrain, absorption, being comfortable in the air and such. I don't think a lot of the coaching was related to the skiing, other than the nuances of SG. Reminding her to have elbows in, hands up, etc.
No talk of making too many specific body movements, etc. as I recall. So for me, I have a very hard time breaking her skiing down that way, and suggesting that anybody try to "do what she does" to improve their skiing other than in the broadest terms. Problably because she is not us.
Some really good points have been noted here. Even when she is skiing VERY dynamically, putting a lot of energy into working a GS ski, etc., she just looks incredibly smooth, very calm, and balanced. When I have been on the hill, I've almost been fooled as to how much speed she is carrying. Her skis are glued to the surface with perfect pressure, and she makes it look effortless.
I recall seeing her at maybe 10 at the Dartmouth Skiway. A friend pointed she and her mom out to me. She was just amazing. And I should add that I have seen plenty of exceptional kids that age. A whole bunch who went on to the WC.
A natural, with who knows how many thousands of hours and miles of drills. It's all built into her.,
I know some top notch youth coaches who spent a huge amount of time trying to explain to parents just how unique this once a generation skier is. And to calm down in terms of not being on her timeline. It's kind of a blessing and curse to have her in this country.
Interesting distinction in terms of describing calm/still/quiet versus disciplined, etc. in terms of her upper body. I was quickly typing on my phone and not wordsmithing too much. It makes sense. I have heard people working with her use the still-like terms, but they aren't teaching, etc.
There is obviously great upper/lower body separation. Essential. Nobody can ski at this level without it. Once again, it just looks natural and effortless with her.
As far as my comment about SSCV's apparent focus on SL as the main building block, please do not read too much into that. Although they are arguably the most successful and best resourced club in the world these days, it's ONE club. Does not mean that any others are going to blindly follow suit. Kirk Dwyer's record is indisputable when it comes to developing athletes. The numbers of skiers at Burke who have moved on to national teams, and the WC, let alone the hundreds of NCAA athletes is incredible. He firmly believes that it all should start with SL proficiency.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Many are in both camps. Keep in mind we are talking about junior development....not specialization at the WC.
MS is also, BTW, generally considered to be the hardest worker on tour among the women, which is saying something.
Very unique in every way.
Thread Starter
TS
Thanks @Muleski, I always love reading your posts for such unique insight and insider knowledge. A take-away regarding becoming a better skier in this post is drill. I have been thinking of working on level 1, 2 & 3 drills with my 8 yr. old next year, if she wants to. If she wants to race, I'll support her but I'm not going to encourage her (or my son). The more I read these posts; I realize how tough, demanding and physically dangerous it is. I would love to be tech support though. My thought is she may want to become an instructor in her teens. I see youtube vids of MS drilling all the time and I just assumed everyone did that at WC level. I know my skiing will improve with drills and know that my kids skiing would quickly reach next level if we drilled for a 1/2 hr of our ski time. Cheers
Chris, much of what makes better skiers 'better' is simply skiing with intent. Know what you want to do or need to work on, and do it. Could be drills, but for most people, directed free skiing will be more valuable than hours of drills and probably more fun as well.
Thanks. Couple of thoughts. First of all, about your kids racing, I would absolutely NOT consider it to be dangerous. Both of our kid raced through college, with extra years thrown in, and knock on wood, had no serious long term injuries. They learned so much, and they love to ski. Ski whenever they can. Both work in the industry.
If they show interest, consider letting them try it. My daughter had been in two weddings of girls that she met as a six year old ski racer. Best friends for life.
Second, this Mikaela/Eileen drilling "thing" is very unusual. Most parents do not introduce kids to the sport and then determine that the fun stuff is drilling. For a lot of time. That has been their thing. Three years ago, I was at Vail for a couple of days. I skied in about a foot of fresh snow way back in Blue Sky Basin with a bunch of U-14's. So much fun. MS and her mom skied about three hours after noon, doing drills at Gold Peak, once it had been plowed down to the firm and tilled/groomed.
The kids also mentioned that LV will not ski powder. Not her thing.
Every WC skier does some drills. Some almost none. Some do very intense free skiing on off days and off season. Big lines. Deep snow, the works. They are all different.
There is a little bit of the tail wagging the dog with the "Mikeala effect". She is a phenom. She was acknowledged as one at 16, 17. Because she was SO young, and a clear once in a generation talent, there has been a lot of interest in "how?"
So some just jump right on the bandwagon of how she developed as a skier. Might work for some. Not for all.
What you do not hear about are all of the problems caused by girls and parents having expectations that are impossible to meet. And the dozens of talented girls who quit because they were dusted by MS. I hate the words "I suck." But there are a lot of girls who had legit USST aspirations and quit the sport as in their eyes what was the use in trying to keep close to her. It's really too bad.
That's one reason, in the eyes of some, why we have a lot of work to do on the tech side of the women's USST. It's a bit of a mess. A very talented girl her age is being dropped this year. At 22. She has huge upside, but she is not MS.
The USST, does not always look like a team.
MS is a team of one. And drilling is a big part of her program. Mom loves it, too.
A half an hour with just one goal at a time is probably as much as your kids would like. I am
a firm believer in making this fun, as that's what lasts!
Whatever.....it works for her! Best ever!
Do mother and daughter love drilling, or do they love racing? They aren't the same thing. I think they love racing, and simply work, ski drills amongst other things, to achieve that. What is special is the common love for racing between parent and child, and the love for learning. Those who have that, it wouldn't matter if the child makes the USST, much less NCAA. So, for those that dropped out because they feel they can't match MS, they were in it for the wrong reasons.
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