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Cornice Hucking Beginner

green26

Putting on skis
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Any instruction and advice for successfully dropping into air off cornices would be highly appreciated. Not knowing what I’m doing makes it a hit-or-miss activity. It’s so fun, I’d like to know about the mechanics. I’m taking a cautious approach and not just flinging myself off, no worries, and checking landing conditions carefully. When I’m not successful it’s only pride that gets hurt along with snow-filled goggles.

I was doing a lot of this off the cornice on Dave's at Mammoth this weekend which had perfect conditions for practicing: soft spring snow.

Thanks!
 

agreen

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Angle - no way I could do straight at this point.
Yeah me too. Especially when there are ruts/bumps in the landing zone. I typically scoot around the top looking for an angled rut to follow and then drop on to that. I try to match my skis to the landing and the thing that's helped me the most is to get a nice knee bend right before I drop. I think it prevents the dreaded stiff legged landing and engages the quads. Ill be there this weekend for more practice!
 
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TS
green26

green26

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Yeah me too. Especially when there are ruts/bumps in the landing zone. I typically scoot around the top looking for an angled rut to follow and then drop on to that. I try to match my skis to the landing and the thing that's helped me the most is to get a nice knee bend right before I drop. I think it prevents the dreaded stiff legged landing and engages the quads. Ill be there this weekend for more practice!
Thanks for the knee bend reminder - I do that on regular jumps but forgot about it on cornices - very good. When I'm in the air my mind goes blank!
 

john petersen

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Park is awesome as a spectator, but it's not for me - why do you ask?

Pretty much what agreen mentioned with good timed flexion and ski/snow angle matching....you can do this multiple times on both sides of the pipe for practice. It really gets the movements in my head before I go try the tough stuff!.....

JP
 

Tricia

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I've gotten little airs off of cornices, but not very often and not much air.
@Philpug is pretty good at getting air off cornices.
10989322_10155427142355018_9107357624027452901_o.jpg



@James seems to do an okay job of it. I guess he and a few others took a Jumping clinic from @dean_spirito a few weeks ago.
James
18491592_10158507048555018_9070050197434696549_o.jpg


Kevin
18489928_10158507048365018_6188150162598956536_o.jpg
 

James

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Hah, yes we did some dropping at Abay.
First off, if you're at Mammoth go into the half pipe! What's this spectatotor nonsense? You will not get out and certainly won't get 10 feet+ out like on tv. ( Unless you do something really stupid, but you'd have to work at it or be really stoned) Just go up the wall a bit and turn down. Want to push the mental envelope, look at the sky as you go up or are near your apex.

If it's not crowded you can practice dropping in at different points along the beginning slope to the wall. Perhaps you'll build to droping in from the top which is fairly terrifying at first esp on a real 22 ft high pipe. (You can drop in at an angle to the wall, don't have to go straight down)

You have to scope out the rules/vibe of the pipe at Mammoth as I don't know. Honestly, if they still offer lessons a basic pipe/jump lesson would be well worth it.

Definitely angle to the landing at first for cornice!

Look at your landing zone before you start and then as soon as it's in view when you go. Force your hands down. There was a good tip from @Mike King about hands if they constantly go up- you can tap the tops of your poles together. Anything to counteract the natural "I surrender" pose we go to with hands over head.

The biggest thing really in the first rock drop we did with Dean after the psychological terror, was dealing with the speed upon landing. Which was like 40mph. That's why angle off if you can.
 

Carl Kuck

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I skied with a buddy at Northstar in the park all day (in my early 50s at the time), we used the half pipe for just what is being discussed - a practice ground for getting yourself forward and dropping in. Worked pretty well, and I had a blast doing it. Good luck and ski safe!
 

James

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I skied with a buddy at Northstar in the park all day (in my early 50s at the time), we used the half pipe for just what is being discussed - a practice ground for getting yourself forward and dropping in. Worked pretty well, and I had a blast doing it. Good luck and ski safe!
Yes. The other thing one has to do is let youself go back as you go up the wall. Otherwise you get to the apex and you're eating the tips or are applying too much pressure to the front of the ski. Then you have to jump or use a pole to turn down.

Thus the look at the sky tip.
Pipe works fore to aft not just fore.

Ever do a pipe on rollerblades? I did once and the first time my feet went right out from under me and I landed on my butt. I didn't go down in space to keep the body perpendicular to the surface and rollerblades let you know quickly.

So if we have to move towards the tips as we start to go straightdown the pipe, we have to move back towards the tails going up- or let our feet move ahead, to remain perpendicular (roughly) to the pipe surface.
 

john petersen

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cool beans!...good discussion about the dynamics of movement here....listening intently.......

JP
 

Mike King

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I'm the biggest chicken out there when it comes to air -- it was really helpful to tag along with @James as he was being coached by @dean_spirito. I even did a couple of minor jumps and cliff drops, although I'm not sure I actually left the ground.

So, if you are willing to drop some change, hire a freestyle coach -- they'll get you set up for air and help your progression. More safely than if you just do it yourself.

Mike
 

Philpug

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Yes. The other thing one has to do is let youself go back as you go up the wall. Otherwise you get to the apex and you're eating the tips or are applying too much pressure to the front of the ski. Then you have to jump or use a pole to turn down.

Thus the look at the sky tip.
Pipe works fore to aft not just fore.

Ever do a pipe on rollerblades? I did once and the first time my feet went right out from under me and I landed on my butt. I didn't go down in space to keep the body perpendicular to the surface and rollerblades let you know quickly.

So if we have to move towards the tips as we start to go straightdown the pipe, we have to move back towards the tails going up- or let our feet move ahead, to remain perpendicular (roughly) to the pipe surface.
Interesting, I was more comfortable in a half pipe (all be it a small one) on rollerblades than a skateboard.

Some cornice pics...

A-Basin mid 90's
Phil Cornice best.JPG

Same day. getting more than I paid for...
fullsizeoutput_6a9.jpeg

Vail:
fullsizeoutput_523.jpeg


Pics 1 & 3, note the hand position in front and ready for the landing. Note the ski/feet position, I pull the feet back to match the angle of the landing.

Pic 2, even though I landed safely, I was not in the right position in the air and you could see that I was uncomfortable. I was in the air much longer that I expected

I remember talkiing to an old friend that did huge cliffs, Palisades/ect about how he did it...he would justify the air by saying that he was really never more than 10-15' from the ground, it is just that the ground was straight down and he was traveling 50..75' parallel, not to different than a downhiller catching some air off of a long roller.
 

dean_spirito

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There are a lot of different ways to approach cornices. They are essentially cliffs with flat takeoffs to angled landings. The two things that I find most inviting about cornices are the gentle approach to the takeoffs and the long landings and runouts.

What is it specifically that you are trying to work on or improve? Do you have any pictures or videos?

I think the big hurdle most people face when they first start skiing off cornices is, how to effectively initiate the first turn after negotiating the vert below the drop. The drop has a tendency to pull people into the backseat because of the rapid acceleration (think about how your body gets pulled into the seat of an airplane at takeoff; Newton's first law of motion). We have to learn to anticipate this force, as well as how to fight it from takeoff through landing.

Here are a couple of quick tips that might help:

  • Try to make your body perpendicular to the slope you are navigating.
  • Keep your hands in front of you and try not to let them get above your shoulders.
  • Keep your head up! You can spot your landing or runout with your eyes, but do not bury your head in your chest looking down. This can cause too much forward pressure as you land and can result in a spectacular tomahawk.
  • Land with a tight core and a slight bend in your knees.
  • Develop an exit strategy before dropping. You should be able to visualize where you are going to land, where you are going to initiate your first turn, and where you intend to go from there. As James mentioned, one of the hardest things is managing the speed that you are carrying after you land.
Hopefully some of that helps. Definitely check out the "Dropping Cliffs" thread as well. There is much more information on this subject there.
 

crgildart

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<--Not recommended method :-P

@dean_spirito What is the current best practice for poles on landing? Back in the day we were taught 4 point landings, but poles tipped back a little, not straight up. I still plant my poles when touching down, sometimes pretty HARD but I think I recall hearing some say modern freestyle coaches aren't recommending pole plant 4 point landings anymore.. and lots of jibbers ski with much shorter poles or ditch them entirely.
 

Doug Briggs

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Start small (duh!)

First find a moderate slope. Stand with your poles in the snow, facing down the fall line. Lift your poles up so you start sliding then you simply tip onto your edges and the turn happens. I don't know what people call this drill, but it is basically going from fall line into the bottom half of a turn. This action is the same thing you will do when you land your cornice drop: skis on snow, pointing down the fall line and immediately turn to a stop.

Your first cornice drop should be from a stop and on a pitch that is not more than 45 degrees or has an extended run out. Both criterion are selected to reduce anxiety. You should feel comfortable on the terrain.

Stand at the edge of a road or small cornice, square to the cornice line, with your tips over the edge, almost up to the binding. Relax. Gently push yourself over the edge but decisively and immediately bring your hands forward in front of you with your arms relaxed, but extended. You want to tip over the edge so that your skis become parallel to the snow below. As soon as you contact the snow, initiate a turn one way or the other and either stop or continue with more turns.

Dropping a cornice is easier if you are perpendicular to the edge as you don't have to deal with one ski leaving the snow before the other; they leave the snow simultaneously. Don't start with any speed, just let the skis tip over the edge. Allow your skis to match the angle of the snow while you move your hands and upper body forward so that when you are on the pitch below the edge your body is essentially perpendicular to the snow and your skis parallel to it.

Once you are comfortable with the move of pressing forward with your hands and letting your skis go from matching the angle of the take off point to tipping them (along with your body) to match the landing zone, you can start adding a little speed. Not much. You need to learn how much speed will get you in the air without sending you too far down the slope.

Don't, repeat DON'T, add upward energy (jump) off launching point. Just let the skis slide and press your hand forward, letting your hands and arms pull your body forward so that when you land your body is perpendicular to the snow and your skis are parallel to the snow.

@James shows nice form here, illustrating much of what Dean mentions above in his bullet points:

Hands forward
Looking at the landing
Flexed legs
Skis parallel to landing zone
Body perpendicular to skis and landing zone

18491592_10158507048555018_9070050197434696549_o.jpg


Just so you know, I don't teach this kind of stuff; I'm just writing what goes through my mind when I'm going to drop a cornice. The most important takeaway from this is that you don't need to come in hot to a cornice to get air. The steeper and longer the drop off the less speed you need to get good air. When I'm going into Zuma from Zuma Cornice, I don't have any speed at all because the area I'm landing in is very steep and I don't want too much speed before I start making my turns. For me, dropping a cornice is a means to access terrain, not the whole objective. I want to land and ski.
 
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