• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Binding ramp angle differences

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,304
I think part of why better skiers feel it is because their boots are stiffer and therefore more sensitive to it. Also, it's not just about performance, for some skiers it can be the difference between being tired after one run and being able to ski all day. I don't care who you are, if you knock it far enough out of whack, you're gonna have a problem.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
21,899
Location
Behavioral sink
Funny thing about that stiffness thing. My bindings have between -1 and 4mm delta (mostly flat). That's over 306mm with however much lopped off to match the contact points.

My zero-stiffness skates have a whopping 22 mm of delta over 195mm :D :D - and that's without measuring inside the boot.

I have no idea what 'whack' even is anymore for things to be out of.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
On hard snow a good skier can feel 1mm difference on the sagittal plane and 1/2 degree on the frontal plane,

Thank you for these terminology distinctions! I will adapt accordingly.

Does your statement imply that on soft snow, a skier may not notice much at all?
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,383
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
I think part of why better skiers feel it is because their boots are stiffer and therefore more sensitive to it. Also, it's not just about performance, for some skiers it can be the difference between being tired after one run and being able to ski all day. I don't care who you are, if you knock it far enough out of whack, you're gonna have a problem.
Sure, but I suspect the major reason that better skiers notice it is that they are more attuned to fore/aft balance. Hence, differences in delta, which directly moves the skier fore and aft, are more noticed by these skiers. Skiers who are continuously forward or aft on the ski will tend to notice differences in delta less, until the delta goes beyond a certain point...

Mike
 

slowrider

Trencher
Skier
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Posts
4,534
Thank you for these terminology distinctions! I will adapt accordingly.

Does your statement imply that on soft snow, a skier may not notice much at all?
I can feel the difference on any snowpack. It's a sensitive for the sweet/balanced spot.
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
I have several thoughts on this.

First I agree with @bud heishman that better skiers are likely to notice changes vs less experienced skiers.

Second, just because the top elite skiers are doing this it may not help you as much as you think, don't forget they are going for that 0.01 second advantage over the rest of the pack. In some cases the speed advantage is gained through sacrifice of other desired important characteristic.

In that regard, unless an inexperienced skier is really out of wack in setup (this requires a good instructor/coach that understand these things to make recommendations/changes), don't mess with it. I would even extend this to advanced/expert skiers unless they really understand what they are doing.

Constantly tweaking and adjusting multiple settings at the same time does not allow one to adapt to any one setting, this in turn gives false feed back and can take you down the garden path so to speak, so that you never find the correct set up because everything is so far off. You will never be happy.

When I make changes I always change one thing and ski it for several days to ensure it's not just a "I like this because it's better not because it's different issue". The several days let's me not notice that change and only notice the change for better or worse.

While this thread is about binding/boot set up it applies to all setup issues. Think of any change as an ROI, what do you give up vs what you gain and is it worth it.
This is a good post. I sometimes am guilty of "chasing the perfect feeling" (ski, boot, etc.) and while I am getting things dialed in, and they DO help (a lot, in some cases) at the end of the day, it's good to get things close then pick a setup and GO SKI IT.

I WILL say that ski testing like we did yesterday made me realize even more how much tweaking and changing never allows me to settle down and get comfortable. I will also say that while I CAN ski any ski, really, and do pretty well on it, I DO have very clear preferences. (Blizzard Black Pearl 88, Blizzard Black Pearl 88, Blizzard Black Pearl 88!) :D
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
This is a good post. I sometimes am guilty of "chasing the perfect feeling" (ski, boot, etc.) and while I am getting things dialed in, and they DO help (a lot, in some cases) at the end of the day, it's good to get things close then pick a setup and GO SKI IT.

I WILL say that ski testing like we did yesterday made me realize even more how much tweaking and changing never allows me to settle down and get comfortable. I will also say that while I CAN ski any ski, really, and do pretty well on it, I DO have very clear preferences. (Blizzard Black Pearl 88, Blizzard Black Pearl 88, Blizzard Black Pearl 88!) :D
:toast
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
I have several thoughts on this.

First I agree with @bud heishman that better skiers are likely to notice changes vs less experienced skiers.

Second, just because the top elite skiers are doing this it may not help you as much as you think, don't forget they are going for that 0.01 second advantage over the rest of the pack. In some cases the speed advantage is gained through sacrifice of other desired important characteristic.

In that regard, unless an inexperienced skier is really out of wack in setup (this requires a good instructor/coach that understand these things to make recommendations/changes), don't mess with it. I would even extend this to advanced/expert skiers unless they really understand what they are doing.

Constantly tweaking and adjusting multiple settings at the same time does not allow one to adapt to any one setting, this in turn gives false feed back and can take you down the garden path so to speak, so that you never find the correct set up because everything is so far off. You will never be happy.

When I make changes I always change one thing and ski it for several days to ensure it's not just a "I like this because it's better not because it's different issue". The several days let's me not notice that change and only notice the change for better or worse.

While this thread is about binding/boot set up it applies to all setup issues. Think of any change as an ROI, what do you give up vs what you gain and is it worth it.

This! To effectively assess changes -one thing at a time. Btw, I normally shim the toe a bit more on slalom ski than GS . Almost all my skis have plates and are usually marker,tyrolia, atomic or look race bindings so all ina fairly similar range so I don't really notice any significant difference jumping betweenpairs. Just ski em.....ogwink
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
On my head slaloms I run 3 shims toe and one or 2 on the heel. This is the "standard" race room set up with the longer screw kit. With marker plates, normally 3 toe and 1 heel
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
I have several thoughts on this.

First I agree with @bud heishman that better skiers are likely to notice changes vs less experienced skiers.

Second, just because the top elite skiers are doing this it may not help you as much as you think, don't forget they are going for that 0.01 second advantage over the rest of the pack. In some cases the speed advantage is gained through sacrifice of other desired important characteristic.

In that regard, unless an inexperienced skier is really out of wack in setup (this requires a good instructor/coach that understand these things to make recommendations/changes), don't mess with it. I would even extend this to advanced/expert skiers unless they really understand what they are doing.

Constantly tweaking and adjusting multiple settings at the same time does not allow one to adapt to any one setting, this in turn gives false feed back and can take you down the garden path so to speak, so that you never find the correct set up because everything is so far off. You will never be happy.

When I make changes I always change one thing and ski it for several days to ensure it's not just a "I like this because it's better not because it's different issue". The several days let's me not notice that change and only notice the change for better or worse.

While this thread is about binding/boot set up it applies to all setup issues. Think of any change as an ROI, what do you give up vs what you gain and is it worth it.

I don't agree. Though less skilled skiers may not be able to feel the difference the difference is there and the body must and will adapt to any angles and compensate to balance and edge. The point is, eliminate the need to compensate by removing these impediments and the skier will benefit immediately whether they are beginners or world cup racers.
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
I think part of why better skiers feel it is because their boots are stiffer and therefore more sensitive to it. Also, it's not just about performance, for some skiers it can be the difference between being tired after one run and being able to ski all day. I don't care who you are, if you knock it far enough out of whack, you're gonna have a problem.

The reason the skier is more tired is because they must compensate for misalignment that once reconciled yields less fatigue therefore better performance.
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
Thank you for these terminology distinctions! I will adapt accordingly.

Does your statement imply that on soft snow, a skier may not notice much at all?

Hard snow makes sagittal and frontal plane adjustments more apparent.
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
Skier
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Posts
1,956
Location
Metuchen, NJ
Should I be worried about removing my binding screws several times and reinstalling in the same holes? When I ski tested my binding delta I only stuffed 3mm of shim between the AFD and my boots. That was much better than the stock delta. I made shims that are a little over 5mm based on the screws I was able to find. This puts what I "feel" as the center of the ski a littlw behind my arch as opposed to the ball of my foot. I'm going to start shortening the screws and removing some shim, but I'm a little concerned about doing this too amny times and weakening the holes.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
21,899
Location
Behavioral sink
Roo Clear - and make sure you don't volcano the holes. That means the screws have to be threaded right into the bottom layer of the stack (and not cross threaded as the angle changes). @Doug Briggs ' trick of back screwing until you can feel the screw sit squarely in the bottom hole is a good one to know. Do not rely on the screws to pull things tight.

You're still using the Snoli cylinder heads that are only partially threaded? That's good - those are better behaved than fully threaded screws.
 
Last edited:

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
@Doug Briggs ' trick of back screwing until you can feel the screw sit squarely in the bottom hole is a good one to know.

I use this with our coffee carafe, which loves to cross thread. Works like a charm.
 

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Posts
4,228
Location
Ontario Canada
I don't agree. Though less skilled skiers may not be able to feel the difference the difference is there and the body must and will adapt to any angles and compensate to balance and edge. The point is, eliminate the need to compensate by removing these impediments and the skier will benefit immediately whether they are beginners or world cup racers.

Not arguing against that, just that changes without reason are not a good idea. As mentioned in my post a good instructor should be able to guide them to the required change in setup.

Added in edit:

One of the reasons I suggest against changes for new skiers, is they don't yet have the muscle or muscle control needed in the sport. My concern is that changes too earlier can sometimes hinder future development as it does not develop the require muscle set. So yes correction is needed, the question becomes is this muscle or is this body type.

This points out the importance of good high level instructors for beginner skiers to sort out the difference!!!

BTW I would suggest Bud Heishman as one of those. :beercheer: (Now I wish I lived closer).
 
Last edited:

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,304
Here's a point of reference. Mike Thomas and I both have Fischer Motive 95s mounted with Look P18s. Both are mounted on the line, and we also both have 315mm BSL. In the box with the binding there is a 4mm shim for the toe which we installed in the initial mount. I only got them last spring and after a while, I started to wonder if the delta was off for me, and in which direction. A few weeks ago, after skiing all day on another par of skis I clicked into my 95s and did a couple of hot laps on steep bump runs. I felt like I was struggling to stay forward and my quads were destroyed for a few days afterward. Normally, I'd say that that is a sign of needing more gas pedal (toes up), but when I initially clicked into them, I remember feeling like the tongue was pushing me back toward the tails. I took them home and got out the calipers to measure the delta. The binding was almost totally flat, somewhere between 0.5 and 1mm toes down. I dug into my box of ski parts and found 4mm heel shims and 6mm toes which would drop my delta to about 3mm down. For me, night and day better. This week I skied Mike's Pro Mountain 95s which he has mounted with P18s with no shim which pouts them somewhere between 4 and 5mm toes down. The second I clicked in I felt how I had to move forward (a little bit) to reach the tongue. They felt great carving groomed, but in bumps I felt like I had to work to keep the tips engaged. So yeah, for sure 2mm is not hard to feel if you are tuned into what you are feeling.
 
Last edited:

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
21,899
Location
Behavioral sink
. Normally, I'd say that that is a sign of needing more gas pedal (toes up), but when I initially clicked into them, I remember feeling like the tongue was pushing me back toward the tails. I took them home and got out the calipers to measure the delta. The binding was almost totally flat, somewhere between 0.5 and 1mm toes down. I dug into my box of ski parts and found 4mm heel shims and 6mm toes which would drop my delta to about 3mm down. For me, night and day better. This week I skied Mike's Pro Mountain 95s which he has mounted with P18s with no shim which pouts them somewhere between 4 and 5mm toes down. The second I clicked in I felt how I had to move forward (a little bit) to reach the tongue. They felt great carving groomed, but in bumps I felt like I had to work to keep the tips engaged. So yeah, for sure 2mm is not hard to feel if you are tuned into what you are feeling.

Huh? That reads 1 mm toes up? 1mm toes down starting + 2 mm toes up net difference = 1mm?
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top