• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Anticipation

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
Instructor
Joined
May 8, 2017
Posts
327
Location
Eastern
I was talking with a colleague yesterday about the fine art of high level fixed target sports and we got into a discussion about anticipation. He suggested that everything we do is anticipatory. I wondered if that was true.

In fixed target sports we strive for a complete lack of human movement as the shot is fired....of course this is impossible as long as our heart is beating and we exist on a moving planet and all that, (and of course trigger squeeze) but there is anticipation surrounding each and every preparatory step to firing the shot.

We can anticipate both consciously and unconsciously to time the shot between heartbeats. thats pretty cool.

Is anticipation based on value? (outcome) or, does value drive anticipation among other things?

In skiing, my value system, what I think is "good or great" comes into play and I strive for that "goodness or greatness" and begin moving towards that end with each turn, ect.....

So, could it be that the way we anticipate outcome is based on our value system, and commands in part our movement patterns?

anticipation in our sport is more fluid, more flowing, at speed, with momentum, and includes dealing with forces and nuance until we stop.

is there physical anticipation?

there is certainly mental anticipation!.....

I need perspective on this....what do you guys think?

JP
 

Varmintmist

Bear, with furnture.
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
1,702
Location
W PA
In shooting it is something you have to work around, in skiing it is pretty essential.
When you anticipate a shot, you will force it which is not what you want to do, you build a theme and assert control so that you break it when you want it to go, but you dont let the situation drive you and you focus on the break and follow through, Then next shot is not in your mind, every one is its own. In skiing, motorcycling or driving you are looking for the next turn. You are planning the next turn or series of turns, direction or whatever at all times. You are not focused on THAT turn, you are focused on the next three. If this one isnt the best you just use the momentum to correct and adjust. Once that bullet is headed downrange, its over.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
Planning is not always anticipation.

When planning, you may "anticipate" in order to time your action to coincide with the predicted event. But you can execute the plan without needing to constantly anticipating the event. (if you do constantly anticipating the event AND MODIFY YOUR PLAN, it then become more reactive than anticipatory)

That's not quite the same as the mental "anticipation" when I am sitting at the airport waiting for my flight to take off.

To me, those are two different meanings of a word that happen to spell the same but really two different words.
 

MikeS

freeski919
Instructor
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Posts
162
Location
New England
I think there is a great deal of physical anticipation in skiing, but as stated, it is distinctly different from the physical anticipation in a shooting sport. Maybe the term "dynamic anticipation" is a good descriptor? I think the best illustration of physical anticipation is muscle tension in uneven terrain. A good skier is constantly changing their muscle tension as they ski through bumps and ungroomed, in anticipation of the immediately ensuing terrain features. It is not something typically managed by the upper reaches of our brains, but rather by the lower structures of our nervous system.
 

Mendieta

Master of Snowplow
SkiTalk Tester
Contributor
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Posts
4,903
Location
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
I think there is a great deal of physical anticipation in skiing, but as stated, it is distinctly different from the physical anticipation in a shooting sport. Maybe the term "dynamic anticipation" is a good descriptor? I think the best illustration of physical anticipation is muscle tension in uneven terrain. A good skier is constantly changing their muscle tension as they ski through bumps and ungroomed, in anticipation of the immediately ensuing terrain features. It is not something typically managed by the upper reaches of our brains, but rather by the lower structures of our nervous system.

I think you hit it on the head, Mike. I love how Lito describes it

:hail:
 
Thread Starter
TS
john petersen

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
Instructor
Joined
May 8, 2017
Posts
327
Location
Eastern
thanks for the distinctions, gang...

I like the clarification with regard to physical anticipation by Mike especially. "lower structures of our nervous systems" implies an instinctual element....a natural anticipation based on prior and current stimulus. Its certainly "whole body" where our different systems come into play and work together into what might be considered "enjoyment"....when all goes well, of course....

I wondered about the reactive element to this, at_nyc, as it may relate to a lack of anticipation/prep and may rely more on basic instinct and survival modes. This sometimes is kinda fun if you are up for adventure and want to simply experience something and test your reactions and coordination, ect.....

I like your take on marksmanship, varmintmist......and the fact that you are looking ahead to turns 2,3,4 in skiing as turn 1 is happening. Yeah, thats what I was thinking about to......mixing it up and deciding that turn 2,3 and 4 can be medium radius and then add a long radius turn for 5 carrying you across the slope for more turns adds some fun......

JP
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
Skier
Joined
May 4, 2017
Posts
1,133
I think there is a great deal of physical anticipation in skiing, but as stated, it is distinctly different from the physical anticipation in a shooting sport. Maybe the term "dynamic anticipation" is a good descriptor? I think the best illustration of physical anticipation is muscle tension in uneven terrain. A good skier is constantly changing their muscle tension as they ski through bumps and ungroomed, in anticipation of the immediately ensuing terrain features. It is not something typically managed by the upper reaches of our brains, but rather by the lower structures of our nervous system.

Forget skiing, I need to apply this concept to my golf swing!!!!
 

Don Duran

Instructor / trainer / coach
Skier
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Posts
55
Location
KSRS
Anticipation can mean so many things. In technique discussions it is usually limited to something called anticipated stances. Not that we don't plan our moves in advance but strategic and tactical decision making is a rather complex subject. Not sure if that is the intended focus JP. If so I will refrain from discussing anticipated stances and their uses.
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,288
Skiing works on different levels of mental anticipation which are IMV tiers of planning. Take a resort groomer - my macro view might be to end up there and get there in a certain number or type of turn. Then I'll have a middle view of the next 3 or 4 turns ahead where the gameplay if modified for traffic or to hit some better snow or visible hazard like a grey spot. Then the turn I'm in which is about the precision of where I'm going - do I go inside or outside or aim to cream that ice chunk at the apex of the turn. The ski mechanics then happen unconsciously but I guess for some, especially when doing drills they'll be thinking on a 4th micro level about body movements.
 
Thread Starter
TS
john petersen

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
Instructor
Joined
May 8, 2017
Posts
327
Location
Eastern
Anticipation can mean so many things. In technique discussions it is usually limited to something called anticipated stances. Not that we don't plan our moves in advance but strategic and tactical decision making is a rather complex subject. Not sure if that is the intended focus JP. If so I will refrain from discussing anticipated stances and their uses.

Thanks for asking, Don. My initial question came from a basic place.....I wish I could say that I had an intended focus within the topic.
I appreciate the distinction between strategy and tactics. they are related, and I can see the venn diagram. Anticipated stances are intriguing. Are there 3-4 types based on terrain, ect?
These topics within are indeed what I am hoping to uncover when I asked the general question because, admittedly, I simply do not have enough knowledge about it. I am looking for definition and greater understanding in general lately.....so Im going with the flow even if I sound pretty clueless at times.....

JES....cant help ya with the golf swing....unless you count throwing the clubs at the woods in frustration! There is a graceful arc involved even in that! ;)

Fatbob...macro and micro...I like that......could it relate to strategy and tactics?....seems like it....I guess we all ski to those different levels based on focus....or, when working on a drill or exercise, we may start at a deeper level that is NOT skiing, but simply an exercise. a focus within a focus. thats pretty cool!

jumping ahead a wee bit, Joubert writes about reaction to different types of terrain and even ruts in a race course....he states that practice, practice, practice will help with familiarity. Practice on all types of terrain and mixing it up for versatility AND practicing on the same terrain to ingrain efficient patterns......I guess its like studying for the test with sample questions.

to me this adds to how you can be versatile and explore new and different terrain and conditions which in turn benefits the way we anticipate....for me thats "fun"


JP
 

Fishbowl

A Parallel Universe
Skier
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Posts
514
Location
Lost
Anticipation in sports can also be detrimental when instant reaction is the preferred outcome. In martial arts sparring, it is often more important to be able to react to what to your opponent is doing rather than anticipate him, which can lead to falling for deliberate fakes and bluffs. For instance, I can repeatedly throw low side sicks at an opponent, conditioning him to low block those attacks. Then, with exactly the same motion, I fake the low kick but target higher, his block will have anticipated my previous motion and go low whilst I go high. To avoid this, you need to be able to react in the moment and ignore the desire to anticipate your opponent. Doing this requires a mind empty of the desire to anticipate the future. A still and empty feeling that allows you to act without thought. Pure reaction without anticipation.

Sorry if this sounds somewhat complicated, but the example is used to show that anticipation can be a positive or negative factor in preferred outcomes, especially if the data you are reacting to is false. It also shows that anticipation is a skill set that can be developed, along with the choice of utilizing it, or not.
 
Thread Starter
TS
john petersen

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
Instructor
Joined
May 8, 2017
Posts
327
Location
Eastern
cool example, Fishbowl!....this is applicable for sure....

JP
 

MikeS

freeski919
Instructor
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Posts
162
Location
New England
I have some other thoughts on the anticipation vs. reaction point. I think there is not a clear line that delineates anticipation to reaction. There are things that are wholly anticipatory, things that are wholly reactive, and things that are a blend of the two. Let me break it down

First, you have planning, which is a thinking process that falls in the category of full anticipation. That can be a plan of how to ski an entire slope, how to ski the next five turns, whichever.

Next is the less thinking and more active anticipation, where your body is moving, and you are essentially following through with your plan.

As you move, your body is taking in input, primarily through your eyes, but also through your ears. You're reading the terrain as you approach it. Your body then makes minor adjustments to anticipate the input your eyes are giving you. This is anticipatory in that you are getting your body ready for what is coming, but also reactive in that you are reacting to your visual input. This is to keep your body and your skis in equilibrium and on plan.

Finally, there is reacting to the physical input from your feet and your proprioception. That is where your anticipation and planning may not have gone well, and now you are reacting to recover, and bring your body back into equilibrium.
 

VickiK

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
892
Location
So. Calif.
We can never know about the runs off piste
But we think about them anyway
And I wonder if I'm really skiing now
Or just chasin' after some finer pow

Anticipation, anticipation
Is makin' me late
Is keepin' me waitin'

And I tell you how easy it feels to go in the trees
And how right my turns might slide around
But I, I rehearsed those lines just late last night
When I was thinkin' about the whole ride down

Sorry folks. I'll crawl back into my hole now. But thanks to Carly for that.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top