• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Angulation feels like....

Status
Not open for further replies.

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
In addition to what Jamt, Jilly, and Zenny said, let's clarify and simply say it might mean getting the chest over the outside ski at and after the fall line (in reality, though it might feel like this, the result won't look like the chest is literally over the outside foot) , but not necessarily forward, otherwise we're likely to see a bunch of folks folded over at the waist, maybe angulating but probably not, and a nice resultant rotary stem and push off as their fore aft balance goes to poop and the lateral gymnastics to compensate begin. Maybe I'm mincing words, but 'bending forward' needs to defined as it's often the source of a lot of misunderstanding and poor snow ski performance.

:beercheer:
Just a couple more thoughts on this. I was responding to the original poster's question which, if memory serves me, was "what does it feel like if I am angulated?" or words to that effect, not "How do I angulate?" I think its useful to answer that original question and also to point out that bending sideways at the waist, as many have been trying to do, does not produce angulation. Neither does bending forward at the waist achieve angulation. Its a mistake to try to achieve angulation, or to try to teach it for that matter, by contorting the body into a particular position. Nonetheless bending at the waist is partly what it feels like.
quote: " Its pointless to attempt it as if assuming a pose were the goal."

Angulation is enabled by the culmination of proper skill development, hopefully guided by good instruction. Skill development and the movement patterns are seldom addressed by the ski instruction articles we read and possibly frequently misunderstood among some instructional staff.
 

karlo

Out on the slopes
Inactive
Joined
May 11, 2017
Posts
2,708
Location
NJ
I don't want to be too leading, so I'd like to start by asking the question: what does angulation feel like?

Two ways to discuss it. Static and dynamic. Statically, IMO, the legs and skis are out and away from your core. Your core is upright, over the snow, as if your feet were under you, but they are not. Dynamically, I feel like angulation, at the waist and hip, is like doing the hula dance or using a hula-hoop, except that our feet are not fixed to the ground, rather, they and the skis are projected outwards in the direction that the hip is thrust.
 

Jamt

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
334
Location
Jämtland, Sweden
Just a couple more thoughts on this. I was responding to the original poster's question which, if memory serves me, was "what does it feel like if I am angulated?" or words to that effect, not "How do I angulate?" I think its useful to answer that original question and also to point out that bending sideways at the waist, as many have been trying to do, does not produce angulation. Neither does bending forward at the waist achieve angulation. Its a mistake to try to achieve angulation, or to try to teach it for that matter, by contorting the body into a particular position. Nonetheless bending at the waist is partly what it feels like.
quote: " Its pointless to attempt it as if assuming a pose were the goal."

Angulation is enabled by the culmination of proper skill development, hopefully guided by good instruction. Skill development and the movement patterns are seldom addressed by the ski instruction articles we read and possibly frequently misunderstood among some instructional staff.
When you say bending at the waist, sideways or forward, do you mean using the hip or the spine?

If you are talking about the hip, i.e. the position of the pelvis in relation to the outside femur, the lateral angulation caused by lifting the inside part of the hip is very important.
 

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
When you say bending at the waist, sideways or forward, do you mean using the hip or the spine?

If you are talking about the hip, i.e. the position of the pelvis in relation to the outside femur, the lateral angulation caused by lifting the inside part of the hip is very important.

I only bend any appreciable amount at the waist at the hip. The pelvis actually rotates forward.The spine is capable of a very little bending without injury.
You can move laterally using the hip joints but true angulation ie a lateral angle requires the pelvis be turned. Since the bending "at the waist" is mainly a forward bend, the pelvis being turned to the outside, makes it into a lateral move.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,602
Location
PNW aka SEA
I only bend any appreciable amount at the waist at the hip. The pelvis actually rotates forward.The spine is capable of a very little bending without injury.
You can move laterally using the hip joints but true angulation ie a lateral angle requires the pelvis be turned. Since the bending "at the waist" is mainly a forward bend, the pelvis being turned to the outside, makes it into a lateral move.

My pelvis rotates back (posterior pelvic tilt). When you rotate forward (anterior), you limit your functional range of functional mobility including femor rotation. My spine can bend and flex a lot. I can nearly touch my palms to the floor. I can touch my knee to the opposite elbow when exercising. I can ride my bike in the drops. I can drive my car. I can twist my spine with my feet planted and see what's behind me. Can you posted a link to a ski video example to help clarify what you're trying to say? Sometimes pictures just work.
:beercheer:
 
Last edited:

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
Marko
Watch almost any video of a World Cup skier or any other top skier angulating well. Maybe pictures will do it for you.
On the other hand consider that you may already know all that you need to know on the subject. ogsmile
If you enjoy skiing, all of this technical drivel may be superfluous.
When you get it you will get it.
 

Jamt

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
334
Location
Jämtland, Sweden
I only bend any appreciable amount at the waist at the hip. The pelvis actually rotates forward.The spine is capable of a very little bending without injury.
You can move laterally using the hip joints but true angulation ie a lateral angle requires the pelvis be turned. Since the bending "at the waist" is mainly a forward bend, the pelvis being turned to the outside, makes it into a lateral move.
IMO true and efficient hip angulation requires the use of multiple movement patterns, the two most important being up and forward with the inside hip, i.e. counter AND tilting of the pelvis.

On the front cover of ultimate skiing there is a good angulation picture. This is using a lot of lateral tilting of the pelvis IMO, and also counter, which increases throughout the turn. Some of the massive counter with the shoulders close to the gate is to avoid hitting the gate
%7B715EF4F4-EFCE-42B5-A5CB-7C106D88F469%7DImg400.jpg
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
Hey Mike,

Ya do know I was just fun’n about he blasphemy, eh!

When on flat’ish skis a simplistic way to look at the difference is if the feet and femur rotate at the same rate you are steering and if the feet and femur rotate at different rates you are tipping. Then the blending i.e. where you live for basic/open parallel.

I like your focus. Steering to edge is very effective! I think “keep the mass over the ski” if taken literally is to the extreme and there is actually a balance (pun intended) related to turn forces. For example, you could create substantial edge angle doing railroad track turns on a flat cat-track or runout at slow speed while keeping the line of action more or less vertical, however, as you pick up the speed, turn forces, and dynamics you will move more toward the other extreme James and Jamt were discussing above about moving in anticipation of the coming forces and your inclination will increase. Also related to Marko’s 2nd paragraph above there is the concept of Incline to enter the turn and Angulate to exit the turn, and it is cool what he mentions about pressure management which I think is what you are finding as well since you “don’t loose engagement in the finish” as you exit the turn.

Do you have some SL skis or other short radius things? Want to go skiing this week? Maybe we get lucky and it will freeze one night and we can get out while the snow is still good first thing one morning! I’m trying to avoid work Mon-Wed …at least for the mornings if you happen to be up?

Best,

Chris
Thanks for working with me on this at A-Basin. It has definitely helped. :thumb:

I'm just curious. How can you tip your ski appreciably without inclining your leg?
Back in the days when I was learning to ski in flexible leather boots that weren't much more than ankle height it was possible to tip your skis with the ankle only. I suppose that even with good fitting boots today some very slight tipping is still possible without inclining your leg but how much turning force can you generate let alone resist without it? When I hear someone saying he is improving his skiing by incorporating inclination the image that brings to mind is either of someone who has been inclining without knowing it or someone who barely skis at all. Even a wedge turner or the "flat ski" turner experiences some inclination (if he is making a turn). Steering or leg rotation if you will doesn't tip the ski it simply turns it. I think you guys must be talking around something without acknowledging what it is (tipping the ski by inclining the leg).
Reading your post reminds me of an instructor I worked with 6 years ago, and not something that (I think) translates well to contemporary equipment.

Did you look at the video? Particularly the pivot slips and the hop pivot slips? The skis are being edged and released entirely with rotation of the femurs under the pelvis. There is no inclination in those maneuvers at all.

Also, the still image in the linked video shows the massive amount of leg rotation that is assisting in creating very high edge angle.

Mike
Are you going to be out this week? I'd love to play around with some stuff before we head back to Tahoe.
 

Tricia

The Velvet Hammer
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
27,297
Location
Reno
Marko
Watch almost any video of a World Cup skier or any other top skier angulating well. Maybe pictures will do it for you.
On the other hand consider that you may already know all that you need to know on the subject. ogsmile
If you enjoy skiing, all of this technical drivel may be superfluous.
When you get it you will get it.
I've skied with Markojp, and trust me, he gets it.

In fact, I've skied with several instructors here and would like to ski with you and see what you're talking about because its not really registering. Perhaps I'm misunderstand your posts, or perhaps you have a better way of communicating in person. :huh:
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
My pelvis rotates back (posterior pelvic tilt). When you rotate forward (anterior), you limit your functional range of functional mobility including femor rotation. My spine can bend and flex a lot. I can nearly touch my palms to the floor. I can touch my knee to the opposite elbow when exercising. I can ride my bike in the drops. I can drive my car. I can twist my spine with my feet planted and see what's behind me. Can you posted a link to a ski video example to help clarify what you're trying to say? Sometimes pictures just work.
:beercheer:

tuck your imaginary tail between your legs.^^^

who is trying to tilt their pelvis forward while skiing......you need up looking like Kim Kardashian not to mention it doesn't work all that well.
 

Zentune

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
143
Location
MT/ID
Someone who has tried without success to achieve angulation needs to know it is mainly achieved by bending forward at the waist and the thing that causes this to be a lateral rather than a fore and aft displacement is the turning of the pelvis which is accomplished by turning the legs (femor rotation if you will).

So then, just to be clear, this would be your teaching cue if you wanted to see more counter and angulating in someone's skiing? Something like, "I want you to try turning the legs and then bend forward at the waist"?

I think it might be helpful for you to think about that some more, no offense :)

zenny
 

Zentune

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
143
Location
MT/ID
I get what you are trying to say Oisin, the legs rotate independently in the hip sockets, and thus rotational separation is created. Combine that with a bend at the waist (I don't like that terminology fwiw) and now you are also separated laterally at the hip. The description sort of sounds like psia's (I'm a member, level 3 instructor and trainer) "the legs turn underneath, and in opposition to, a stable upper body". I don't necessarily like their wording, but it does include something you may want to consider. The words "In OPPOSITION and STABLE" are relevant here.

You see, the legs need something to turn AGAINST if your are describing a steered turn, and that something is a counter-force which is generated by a slight rotation of the pelvis in the opposite direction that the legs are turning. And in a carved turn, since the edges are locked, a counter force is also required so that the resultant leg rotation caused by the self steering skis turning the legs doesn't transfer up the whole body...the is why some like to call it counteraction because your are counteraction the effects of said imparted rotational force from the legs. In either case however, such is necessary if one wishes to avoid whole body rotation....also note that I am NOT describing counter-rotation in the classic sense, which is a different animal.

So, if one were to simply turn there legs and then bend forward at the waist, what would likely be the outcome........?

Something to chew on, mentally.....

zenny
 
Last edited:

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
I've skied with Markojp, and trust me, he gets it.

In fact, I've skied with several instructors here and would like to ski with you and see what you're talking about because its not really registering. Perhaps I'm misunderstand your posts, or perhaps you have a better way of communicating in person. :huh:

I'd be happy to ski with you anytime. I don't doubt that Markojp can ski but its apparent that he does not understand angulation.
I'm sorry if my method of communication falls short. Perhaps if I understood what you fund confusing we could work together to better understand. I'm not interested in impressing anyone by demonstrating what I know. I'm only attempting to explain some pretty basic concepts.
 

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
I get what you are trying to say Oisin, the legs rotate independently in the hip sockets, and thus rotational separation is created. Combine that with a bend at the waist (I don't like that terminology fwiw) and now you are also separated laterally at the hip. The description sort of sounds like psia's (I'm a member, level 3 instructor and trainer) "the legs turn underneath, and in opposition to, a stable upper body". I don't necessarily like their wording, but it does include something you may want to consider. The words "In OPPOSITION and STABLE" are relevant here.

You see, the legs need something to turn AGAINST if your are describing a steered turn, and that something is a counter-force which is generated by a slight rotation of the pelvis in the opposite direction that the legs are turning. And in a carved turn, since the edges are locked, a counter force is also required so that the resultant leg rotation caused by the self steering skis turning the legs doesn't transfer up the whole body...the is why some like to call it counteraction because your are counteraction the effects of said imparted rotational force from the legs. In either case however, such is necessary if one wishes to avoid whole body rotation....also note that I am NOT describing counter-rotation in the classic sense, which is a different animal.

So, if one were to simply turn there legs and then bend forward at the waist, what would likely be the outcome........?

Something to chew on, mentally.....

zenny

Zenny
We're not in disagreement. When you rotate your legs with flat skis the skis will pivot. When your skis are on edge there is tremendous resistance to turning the skis so the effort acts upon whatever provides less resistance. Clamp something (not something sharp like a drill bit please) in your electric drill. Press the button. That thing will rotate. Now fix that object in place by clamping it in a vise. Press the trigger and the drill itself will rotate. (Try not to let it break your wrist.) Now the leg rotating force may only create tension in the legs but it will probably act to turn your pelvis. I think the two rotational forces acting upon pelvis will actually counter this turning effect unless you relax the turning force in one of your legs. At any rate something causes your pelvis to become turned or to remain in position with respect to the direction your skis are heading as you execute a turn. The rotation is taking place in the hip joints. The musculature used to effect leg rotation is about all there is available to do this.This leg turning is what causes upper and lower body separation to occur. Without it you are not in position to angulate to adjust your lateral balance against the forces in a turn. There are a whole host of things in play here which is why I urge anyone to not try to achieve angulation by simply moving body parts into position. Its important to make leg rotation and the resulting upper and lower body separation a habitual part of a person's skiing in order to facilitate the development of angulation. You must be countered to some degree (ie your pelvis is turned with respect to your skis) in order that the bend at the waist actually moves your upper body toward the outside of the turn instead of simply toward your ski tips.

You're right. It is the countering force which prevents your upper body from following your skis. It turns your pelvis or perhaps simply prevents it from following your legs and skis in a turn. Without this countering force you would likely be "square" to your skis throughout the turn and hence unable to effectively angulate.

Turn your legs and bend forward at the waist and you angulate. I think I offered an illustration way back in this thread. Sit in a chair, extend your legs outward but keeping your feet on the floor. Turn each of your legs (both) to one side or the other. Now bend at the waist. You are angulating. Now imagine you are resisting the outward forces in a turn. They will pull you both outward and down toward the floor. The degree to which you bend at the waist or not serves to adjust your balance against these forces so that you do not fall down on the one hand or skid your turn on the other.

The more words we use to communicate unfortunately the more complex we make a remarkably simple concept appear to be. Oh to be on skis.
 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,602
Location
PNW aka SEA
I'd be happy to ski with you anytime. I don't doubt that Markojp can ski but its apparent that he does not understand angulation.
I'm sorry if my method of communication falls short. Perhaps if I understood what you fund confusing we could work together to better understand. I'm not interested in impressing anyone by demonstrating what I know. I'm only attempting to explain some pretty basic concepts.

Oisin, why are you making this personal? Fwiw, like Zenny, I'm also a PSIA member, L3, trainer, FIS race, etc... background. . Because I disagree with the words you use doesn't mean I think you don't understand angulation, etc... only that your verbal discriptions are not at all clear. I think youd give me the same professional courtesy if you don't feel my explainations are clear to you. It's also why I asked you to link a video showing exemplary skiing... to have a bit of common ground to MA and test our words against. Again, Epicski is dead, buried, and gone. Leave the personal attack BS out of it.
 
Last edited:

Zentune

Getting on the lift
Instructor
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Posts
143
Location
MT/ID
Turn your legs and bend forward at the waist and you angulate. I think I offered an illustration way back in this thread. Sit on a chair, extend your legs outward but keeping your feet on the floor. Turn both your legs to one side or the other. Now bend at the waist. You are angulating.

See, this is where some of the confusion lies....when you sit in the chair, your pelvis IS anchored and so, it cannot rotate (appreciably) and turning the legs in isolation is quite simple. And yet when we ski, there is no such external force that anchors, or makes stable, the pelvis.....

zenny
 

BornToSki683

Putting on skis
Pass Pulled
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Posts
113
Location
Park City
Oisin, you are not on the wrong track about developing counter and then leaning your upper half forward (rather then tilting your torso sideways) to create a kind of angulation with less pinching sideways to do it. In actual practice its probably not 100% cut and dried that you can create enough counter and exclusively bend forward at the waist to create a kind of hip angulation. In actual practice there can be some leaning forward at the waist (if there is counter), and there can also be some amount of leaning out sideways as well, and there will also almost certainly be come articulation in the spine, which can also be in 2 dimensions in addition to whatever is happening in your hip socket... The counter, if present, just changes a bit which direction the spine should articulate...and it will probably not be exclusively sideways, nor exclusively forward. It will be whatever it needs to be in order to balance over the outside ski with whatever amount of counter you happen to have at the moment. If you try to do it exclusively by leaning forward, you will also have to bend forward considerably more then if you mix in some sideways, in order to get balanced on the outside ski. I would say that exclusively trying to do it by leaning forward will produce hip dumpy skiing with exaggerated counter. You are quite correct, however, that counter enables the skier to get balanced over the outside ski using using different larger muscle groups, leaning sort of forward rather then the sideways pinch, which is a good thing.

I differ with you 150% about how to develop counter. Your thoughts about trying to twist the femurs to create counter are, however, quite common in PSIA circles.

Here is a thought experiment for you. Think for a bit, what would the effective differences be between practicing say.....double pole plant drills and pivot slips, with regards to developing better counter? I see and experience myself huge differences between those two drills in terms of how upper-lower separation is created, yet both develop what different people would refer to as so called "counter", not necessarily the same kind of counter in those different cases, so there again we have another word which can mean different things depending on the bio mechanical movements used to create it.

I also want to ask you, if you create hip angulation by twisting your feet to the side and bending forward at the waist, do you expect this action to cause increased edging? I don't. If you try to twist BOTH femurs, do you expect this simultaneous action to swing the pelvis outwards into counter against edged and stabilized skis? I don't.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,602
Location
PNW aka SEA
Last edited:

oisin

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
33
So then, just to be clear, this would be your teaching cue if you wanted to see more counter and angulating in someone's skiing? Something like, "I want you to try turning the legs and then bend forward at the waist"?

I think it might be helpful for you to think about that some more, no offense :)

zenny
No I would not teach that way. leg rotation and countering need to become habitual in a person's skiing. Ideally they (upper and lower body separation) should have been present throughout the skier's development but we know that often they are not. Some leg rotation is probably present but often not enough to enable upper and lower body separation. Any attempt at angulation ought to be in the context of a turn in which a host of things is present. Its pointless as I've said a number of times here to attempt to teach angulation as if it were a pose (even a dynamic pose) by moving various body parts into position. No offense but "I want you to try turning the legs and then bend forward at the waist" would be absurd.
It seems to me that we are trying to address things here which were not part of the original question which was "how does it feel when I'm angulating?" or words to that effect. We then turned to describing what it looks like when angulating and then toward a description of the mechanics of angulation. Now it seems as if we are thinking that these are a description of how to teach or to learn angulation. We're covering the bases as far as learning styles but that is not enough. As has been pointed out skiing is dynamic and involves the development of skills and movement patterns and the blending of those skills. Its best taught in the context of development rather than discrete positions and actions. Turning your legs and bending at the waist are part of what is involved in angulation but they will not produce effective angulation in your skiing. My lesson would involve the development of upper and lower body separation. This could involve a lesson and days, weeks months of practice and perhaps additional lessons. It isn't what the student wants to hear but its required before any kind of bending and turning are going to be useful to produce effective angulation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Dwight
    Practitioner of skiing, solid and liquid
Top