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Angulation feels like....

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Jamt

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I'm sorry but with all due respect, this is nonsense. You must have really crappy fitting ski boots if simply relaxing your ankle causes you to slip. I mean this would happen to me if I were skiing in my bathroom slippers, but I don't.

There is a reason we have ski boots. There is a reason why they are designed as they are and there is a reason why we have them fitted as closely as we can. It is so that what you describe will not happen.

I feel perfectly comfortable relaxing my ankle while standing on the hill knowing that my edges will not release.

The relationship of the leg and its inclination to edge angle is so fundamental a concept to modern skiing the mind boggles that it could be in dispute.

Similarly the notion that leg rotation changes edge angle is silly. It may very well be what you do to make changes in edge angle happen. There are a lot of interesting ways in which leg rotation is incorporated into our skiing , as we've discussed, but it does not in itself cause a change in edge angle. I'll say it once more: Tilt your leg and you will cause the base of your ski to tilt. Its a pretty simple relationship.

I think I've heard enough to be finished with this thread.
With all due respect, what @Chris Geib says is very accurate and true. If you don't use the ankle joints (in particular subtalar) you are leaving a lot of performance on the hill.Tipping the feet is the most important part of knee angulation. If you are relaxing the ankle joints you are skiing with knee drive, which is a poor substitute.
If I relax my ankle joints I WANT the skis to release. I don't have crappy fitting boots. They are 150 flex with tight foam liners but they don't immobilize the ankle.

The role of the ski boot is to assist the ankle joints, not to lock or disable.

In almost all ski literature inclination is usually referred to the inclination of the CoM<->BoS center in relation to a vertical line (vertical in reference to snow plane).
Inclination of lower leg is not very useful since it is more or less the same as edge angle.
 

markojp

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I'm sorry but with all due respect, this is nonsense. You must have really crappy fitting ski boots if simply relaxing your ankle causes you to slip. I mean this would happen to me if I were skiing in my bathroom slippers, but I don't.

There is a reason we have ski boots. There is a reason why they are designed as they are and there is a reason why we have them fitted as closely as we can. It is so that what you describe will not happen.

I feel perfectly comfortable relaxing my ankle while standing on the hill knowing that my edges will not release.

The relationship of the leg and its inclination to edge angle is so fundamental a concept to modern skiing the mind boggles that it could be in dispute.

Similarly the notion that leg rotation changes edge angle is silly. It may very well be what you do to make changes in edge angle happen. There are a lot of interesting ways in which leg rotation is incorporated into our skiing , as we've discussed, but it does not in itself cause a change in edge angle. I'll say it once more: Tilt your leg and you will cause the base of your ski to tilt. Its a pretty simple relationship.

I think I've heard enough to be finished with this thread.


Looks like this thread is going 'epic'... :nono:

Oisin, I think what is being said is that when ankles relax, it starts a chain of events starting from the feet and moving up that result in skis flattening. Chris is actually correct. No need to sling arrows and poo at boot fit (yes, I can articulate my ankles in my boot enough to change edge angles... Foam liner, 140 flex, race fit. Knees have a limited lateral range of lateral mobility without femor rotation. That said, I think (again) we're talking nuances and need to assume a bit that this can still be done well and accurately without the pelvis following skis continously through the arc. Anyhow... Fwiw, when instructional threads raise blood pressure, best to walk away.
:beercheer:
 
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Varmintmist

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Just a thought or two.

Since I came back to skiing I was having a hard time finding the happy place where one skis into the turn and finding that float feel in the transition. You find the zone and it is rhythmic and relaxed and I look like I know what the heck I am doing. Definitely something I am going to seek hard when the season gets back.

I still dont know if I am doing it as well as I can be but what got me back to the trampoline feel (love that graphic) was treating it like riding a motorcycle. Its a similar feel taking a cruiser through corners. You roll in, counter steer and add throttle to stack pressure on the suspension, the roll back up to a neutral position and then counter steer and roll throttle on. The tires are going a lot farther than your head in each case.
Separation is like kayaking with a good stroke. In that case your torso is doing most of the work, you are turning from the hip essentially the same amount as turning the skis away. A good kayak stroke involves as much core as arm movement with the core doing the work. Angulation is also a good kayak analog. You shift your hips away from your COM to make better turns.

I found that starting with my ankles every time, getting out over the skis, keeping my paws downhill, and letting the skis run around me,I ended up forcing a pole plant at each apex which had me reaching towards the inside of the next turn (does that make sense??), having a little faith in the gear and letting the skis run opened up the door.
 

KingGrump

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Agree with Mark, let's not go 'epic' with the instruction threads. One of the least liked forums in epic for me.
Perhaps need a few more hacks like me with dumb ass questions in the middle to keep things from getting too deep.

I still dont know if I am doing it as well as I can be but what got me back to the trampoline feel (love that graphic) was treating it like riding a motorcycle. Its a similar feel taking a cruiser through corners. You roll in, counter steer and add throttle to stack pressure on the suspension, the roll back up to a neutral position and then counter steer and roll throttle on. The tires are going a lot farther than your head in each case.

I found that starting with my ankles every time, getting out over the skis, keeping my paws downhill, and letting the skis run around me,I ended up forcing a pole plant at each apex which had me reaching towards the inside of the next turn (does that make sense??), having a little faith in the gear and letting the skis run opened up the door.

Good analogy with the bike. I do the same with the throttle in a car to adjust line and vehicle attitude while in a corner. Much more delicate and accurate than sawing at the wheel.

When you say apex, you mean the outer-most point on the 'C' ?
If that is the apex - pole plant at the apex? Not quiet seeing it.
Care to elaborate?
 

Mendieta

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Adding @Tricia , @Philpug and @T-Square

Yes, let's be clear about this. It will take some time for everyone to adjust, but we need to keep PugSki friendly and respectful. These two sentences convey the same message:
  • "This is ridiculous, when you do X you achieve Y."
  • "Actually, I think when you do X you achieve Y."
Guess which one we prefer, and why?
 

Varmintmist

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Good analogy with the bike. I do the same with the throttle in a car to adjust line and vehicle attitude while in a corner. Much more delicate and accurate than sawing at the wheel.
You dont add throttle to adjust the line, on a MC, when you roll on in a turn, you load your suspension by adding force. You can feel the bike gather under you when you do it correctly. A incorrect turn on a MC is where you are sitting perpendicular to the road and steering around the curve. You see it a lot in the summer, bikes that slow to a crawl at every turn. One should be at the same speed or better slightly accelerating IN the turn. The feeling is a lot like skiing. Transition, turn, feel the pressure, feel the let off, transition, turn, feel pressure

When you say apex, you mean the outer-most point on the 'C' ?
If that is the apex - pole plant at the apex? Not quiet seeing it.
Care to elaborate?
search Apex turn, but basically, yeah. The apex is the inside of the "c". If you look at the diagram of a MC apex turn, I think the COM (ski) is the MC, and the skis are the road. Just for a way to visualize it.

When I transition and start the turn, I reach in the point on the inside of the place where my skis are at the outside (top of C) and turn around that. When the rest of me caught up, I was starting to switch so I was looking at the next plant (touch) downhill. It kind of helped me keep my body forward instead of pulling back with the inside arm.
When the turns get bigger I cant turn around the touch, but if I am doing it right, its not needed.

I am by NO means good at it, but I can find it most times when everything is peachy. I want to be able to do it at a greater rate of speed and in something other than wide groomed runs.
 

KingGrump

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OK, thanks for the clarification. Same word, two different applications, two different meanings.
A couple of pics for a visual of the differences.

Clipping the apex on the road.

Apex - Auto.gif


Apex of a ski turn.

Apex - Ski.png
 

James

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@oisin, maybe this will help.

Written by @Bob Barnes 4/1/12 in epicski thread, "What is best edge angle for max grip", started by Krazy Legs, 2012

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Krazzy Legs--I suspect that it's a bit more complicated than you've been imagining--or perhaps less. The surprising fact is that edge angle on the snow surface has nothing to do with how well a ski grips or slips. Nothing! Indeed, there are many situations where a ski with a higher edge angle will not hold and carve as well as a ski with a lower angle. "Booting out" is one of them, of course, but there are other situations too. I'll get to that later, but let's look first at how edging influences a ski's grip, if the edge angle on the snow has nothing to do with it.

There are two ways (at least) to measure and describe edge angle, and they are both important in skiing but for different reasons. The first and most common is to describe the edge angle relative to the snow surface. The second--and the one that matters here--is to describe the edge angle relative to the force the skier applies to the ski. This is the intriguing concept often called "critical edge angle," or more recently "platform angle" (both terms originated, I believe, by Ron LeMaster). We've discussed these things before at EpicSki, but it's time to raise them again because they're very relevant to your original post. It's not easy to explain, from my experience, but once you get it, it may create an "ahah!" experience that brings many things into focus. Here goes....

"Critical Edge Angle" or "Platform Angle"
Imagine standing still on a very slippery, icy staircase. If the steps are level or tilted slightly toward the staircase, you won't slip off. But if the steps tilt out away from the staircase, you're probably doomed. Here's a crude illustration of what I'm describing:


Fig. 1. When the platform is level (A), you won't slip off no matter how slippery the surface because the force you apply to the step (straight down, due to gravity) is perpendicular to the step surface. When the step tilts toward the "hill," as in B, gravity tends to pull you toward the staircase. But when the platform tips away from the hill as in C, gravity will cause you to slip off the step.

Assuming the edge is sharp enough, a ski with pressure on it will carve a little "step" in the snow surface very similar to the steps of the staircase in the example in Fig. 1. When standing still or traversing across the hill in a straight line, gravity's straight-down pull is the only significant force, so the angle of the step cut by the edge works the same way as the steps on the icy staircase. When the ski edge is level (perpendicular to the downward pull of gravity) as in skier A1 or tilted a little toward the hill (B1), the ski will hold. When the edge tips downhill slightly (skier C1), it releases as the force of gravity literally pushes the ski out of its little notch, off its step. Here's an illustration:


Fig. 2. When standing still or traversing, the force applied to the ski (red arrows) is vertical, due solely to gravity acting on the center of mass. Skiers A1 and B1 will hold because the "platform angle" is 90 degrees (A1) or less (B1) from the angle of the force applied to the ski edge. Skier C1 will slip, just like the person standing on the slippery, tilted step above (C). Note the small notches or "steps" carved into the snow by the skis, very similar to the steps on the staircase in the first illustration.

In the second illustration, it's important to note that it does not matter how steep the hill itself is. The steeper the hill, the greater the edge angle relative to the snow surface, but the angles of the "steps"--the "platform angles"--do not change. In other words, you really do not need to tip your skis any more to hold on a steep slope than you do on a shallow slope. As we've all experienced, all it really takes to hold an edge when standing across a hill or traversing is a little ankle tension to cause just slight angulation to tip the skis to "critical edge angle" of level or slightly tipped into the hill. Likewise, releasing the edge to start a new turn involves little more than relaxing the ankle (or ankles) to let go of the mountain and let the skis slip.

Finally, in a turn, other forces arise. Centrifugal force, resulting from the turn itself, pulls out away from the center of the turn, and we lean (incline) into the turn for balance. (Please do not argue about centrifugal force here--no matter how you may prefer to explain the phenomenon, your body knows perfectly well that it needs to lean into a turn for balance!) These combined forces and the resulting lean of the body (center of mass) cause the direction of the force applied to the ski to tip away from vertical. As we incline into the turn, our skis naturally tip to a higher angle against the snow surface (unless we work hard to prevent it), but the critical edge angle that creates the platform angle stays the same, relative to the now-tilted force. And the ski's tendency to grip or slip depends as before on that angle--not on the edge angle on the snow. In other words, it is the shape of the skier's body--"angulation" or the lack thereof in ankles, knees, hips, and spine--that determines grip, NOT the degree of inclination, which largely influences the ski's edge angle on the snow.


Fig. 3. Here, skier A2 is standing still or traversing and therefore "vertical." His ski grips because of slight angulation (lateral angles, essentially) in the ankles, knees, and hips, which creates the platform angle of less then 90 degrees to the (vertical) force applied to the ski. Skier B2 is in almost exactly the same posture as skier A2, but because he is turning, his whole body--and skis--tip into the turn. The platform angle remains the same as skier A2, even though the edge angle on the snow has increased. Skier C2, even though his edge angle on the snow is about the same as skier A2, does not hold because he is "banking"--leaning his upper body into the turn and causing the platform angle to increase greater than 90 degrees to the angle of the force he applies to his ski.

So that's "critical edge angle" or "platform angle" in a nutshell. Basically, if the ski is tipped perpendicular or to an acute angle with the line of force, the ski will tend to hold. When tipped to an obtuse angle (greater than 90 degrees) to the line of force, the force will tend to push the ski right off its platform and cause it to skid, no matter how high the edge angle on the snow surface. (Of course, if you want to get picky and technical, factors such as the ski's torsional stiffness--how much it twists along its length when tipped on edge--come into play, skewing the numbers somewhat. Overall sharpness, base and side edge bevels, and snow conditions factor in as well.)

---

So, if it does not influence the ski's ability to hold, what DOES edge angle on the snow do? It plays an entirely different, but no less important, role, and as skiers, we must control both edge angle on the snow AND platform angle independently, but simultaneously, continuously, and accurately. Essentially, a ski's edge angle on the snow, combined with its sidecut radius (and sufficient pressure to bend the ski, properly located), influences the size of the turn the ski "tries" to carve, as the following illustration shows:


Fig. 4. On hard snow, the higher the edge angle (on the snow), the tighter radius turn the ski wants to carve. The basic formula is sidecut radius X cosine of edge angle = carving radius. (In soft and deeper conditions, sidecut and edge angle are less significant, as it is primarily the ski's flotation and flexibility, combined with the amount and location of pressure on it, that causes it to bend.)

Here too, the simple formula represents only an approximation, as torsional stiffness, flex pattern, sidecut shape, fore-aft pressure distribution, snow conditions, and other skier movements and factors all influence ultimate turn shape and carving radius. And, of course, in powder, crud, and other soft-snow conditions, sidecut plays a much less significant role.


How can a ski hold LESS well when tipped to a higher edge angle?
Because edge angle on the snow plays such a significant role in the carving radius of a turn, too much edge angle can actually cause a ski to hold less well than "just enough" edge angle. Especially at high edge angles of 45 degrees and up, a slight change in edge angle can have a tremendous influence on the ski's carving radius. For example, an edge angle (on the snow) of 60 degrees (cosine = .5) creates a theoretical carving radius of one half the ski's sidecut radius. Increasing the edge angle just 15 degrees further from 60 degrees to 75 degrees (cosine = .26) nearly cuts the theoretical carving radius in half again--about one quarter of the ski's sidecut radius! When the ski bends into a tighter radius arc than the turn the skier is trying to make, it will not carve--or hold--nearly as well as when tipped to the optimal angle. Conversely, if you let the ski tighten the turn to whatever radius it bends into, it will cause a dramatic increase in the g-forces (centrifugal force) caused by the turn. That can cause the snow itself to break away under the load, and can also increase the stress on the body, making it more difficult to sustain the intense force--either way resulting in the ski skidding because of too-high edge angles.

---

Whew! Well, that was a good exercise for me, as I've wanted to create some illustrations to try to help explain some of these technical concepts. I hope they help clarify some interesting technical details and potential paradoxes of skiing! As others have suggested, Krazzy Legs, it is at least possible that what you've described as "booting out" could be due to some of the other reasons that skis will break away and slip or skid due to extremely high edge angles, as I just described. Of course, it could be that you've booted out, too. It does happen, especially on very narrow skis without much "lift" under the boots. And some boots are wider and more prone to booting out than others.

If you have some video....

wink.gif


Best regards,
Bob Barnes
 
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markojp

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Yup... Lot's of hip dumpers have edge angle, but the skis they're a chatter'in... Platform angle is where it's at! ogsmile
 

JESinstr

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One of the best diagrams I have seen.
I will repeat here what I posted on TDK's recent MA thread. Edging happens as a result of the inside ski getting shorter. (quote from JF Beaulieu)
If we are doing short radius turns, the need to actively shorten is negated by the countering of the upper mass A2
If we are doing medium and larger turns the inside leg needs to be actively shortened (with foot pulled back underneath) as the turn deepens. You don't get that upward spike of the inside knee by accident!

C2 speaks for itself but I will submit that intentionally countering your upper body to face down hill when your are trying to make medium and larger turns will help lead to this demise. .
This diagram is a keeper!
 

john petersen

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angulation feels like saying hello to your next turn on your own terms.

see, A2 and even B2 are smiling...clear as day...own terms.

JP

;)
 

oisin

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Looks like this thread is going 'epic'... :nono:

Oisin, I think what is being said is that when ankles relax, it starts a chain of events starting from the feet and moving up that result in skis flattening. Chris is actually correct. No need to sling arrows and poo at boot fit (yes, I can articulate my ankles in my boot enough to change edge angles... Foam liner, 140 flex, race fit. Knees have a limited lateral range of lateral mobility without femor rotation. That said, I think (again) we're talking nuances and need to assume a bit that this can still be done well and accurately without the pelvis following skis continously through the arc. Anyhow... Fwiw, when instructional threads raise blood pressure, best to walk away.
:beercheer:
Hi
My point is the physical mechanical relationship of the leg to the bottom of your ski boot. If your boots do not flex laterally then when the base angle changes there is a corresponding change in leg ankle. Pretty simple. Maybe there is some slop in the boot fit although I hope it is miniscule. There are various things that can be done to make those things happen (change of leg angle and change of base angle. If relaxing your ankle starts a change of events that results in a change of leg angle there will also be a change of base angle. There is no need to complicate this. You're absolutely correct about leg rotation being a requirement for "knee angulation" so-called. My larger point was the critical importance of leg rotation in the achievement of angulation, to get back to the reason for the thread. Not only does leg rotation enable the fore and aft flexure of the knee to present a lateral displacement so does leg rotation enable the flexure at the waist in what is normally a fore and aft plane to present a lateral displacement. What the leg rotation does is to result in the turning of the pelvis away from the direction the skis are pointed. This is what enables angulation to occur.

I think it is useful to know this in order to answer the original poster's question. Someone who has tried without success to achieve angulation needs to know it is mainly achieved by bending forward at the waist and the thing that causes this to be a lateral rather than a fore and aft displacement is the turning of the pelvis which is accomplished by turning the legs (femor rotation if you will).

So, what does it feel like (angulation)? Your legs are turned, you are bending forward at the waist and it is helping you to balance. You will be holding better on all kinds of snow if you are doing it right.
 
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Jilly

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So, what does it feel like (angulation)? Your legs are turned, you are bending forward at the waist and it is helping you to balance. You will be holding better on all kinds of snow if you are doing it right.

"bend at the waist"? Then my butt is in the air!! Bend at the hips, but don't sit in a chair.
 

Jamt

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Hi
My point is the physical mechanical relationship of the leg to the bottom of your ski boot. If your boots do not flex laterally then when the base angle changes there is a corresponding change in leg ankle. Pretty simple. Maybe there is some slop in the boot fit although I hope it is miniscule. There are various things that can be done to make those things happen (change of leg angle and change of base angle. If relaxing your ankle starts a change of events that results in a change of leg angle there will also be a change of base angle. There is no need to complicate this. You're absolutely correct about leg rotation being a requirement for "knee angulation" so-called. My larger point was the critical importance of leg rotation in the achievement of angulation, to get back to the reason for the thread. Not only does leg rotation enable the fore and aft flexure of the knee to present a lateral displacement so does leg rotation enable the flexure at the waist in what is normally a fore and aft plane to present a lateral displacement. What the leg rotation does is to result in the turning of the pelvis away from the direction the skis are pointed. This is what enables angulation to occur.

I think it is useful to know this in order to answer the original poster's question. Someone who has tried without success to achieve angulation needs to know it is mainly achieved by bending forward at the waist and the thing that causes this to be a lateral rather than a fore and aft displacement is the turning of the pelvis which is accomplished by turning the legs (femor rotation if you will).

So, what does it feel like (angulation)? Your legs are turned, you are bending forward at the waist and it is helping you to balance. You will be holding better on all kinds of snow if you are doing it right.
Relaxing the foot has very little to do with lateral displacement of the lower leg inside the boot. What happens is that when you tip your foot the subtalar joints acts like a torque converter so the lower leg rotates around its long axis. This in turn allows for the femur rotation required for knee angluation. Knee angulation happens around the femur head AND the subtalar joint primarily. Cannot have one without the other. Think of an imaginary axis going through the femur head and the subtalar joint. Knee angulation is rotating of the leg around this axis.

A good exercise to feel what effect counter, folding forward at the hip and laterally tilting the pelvis has is to sit on the floor with the "outside" foot resting against the wall and the knee resting against the "inside" heel. The upper body should be close to vertical. Play with the different movements of the hip and feel what position feels most natural.
Too much counter and the knee will rise from the heel, then we have hip dump. Too little counter it is probably hard to have the upper body vertical.
If a natural position cannot be found it is necessary to do some mobility work.
 

Zentune

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Yup, and to add to Jamt's post, the foot/lower leg relationship changes (or at least it should!) throughout the entirety of the arc. For example the outside foot may go from everting to pronating and then rolling back towards supination, all in one turn. So yes leg rotation (be it passive or more active) is certainly important, but so is this leg/foot relationship, after all, the foot IS technically the base of support primarily, although some would argue that that can extend to the ski as well....

So while the hip does have much greater rotational RoM, the foot/ankle is no less important as this is what will definitely help determine wher the load above (body/cm) stacks.

zenny
 
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markojp

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Hi
Someone who has tried without success to achieve angulation needs to know it is mainly achieved by bending forward at the waist and the thing that causes this to be a lateral rather than a fore and aft displacement is the turning of the pelvis which is accomplished by turning the legs (femor rotation if you will).

So, what does it feel like (angulation)? Your legs are turned, you are bending forward at the waist and it is helping you to balance. You will be holding better on all kinds of snow if you are doing it right.

In addition to what Jamt, Jilly, and Zenny said, let's clarify and simply say it might mean getting the chest over the outside ski at and after the fall line (in reality, though it might feel like this, the result won't look like the chest is literally over the outside foot) , but not necessarily forward, otherwise we're likely to see a bunch of folks folded over at the waist, maybe angulating but probably not, and a nice resultant rotary stem and push off as their fore aft balance goes to poop and the lateral gymnastics to compensate begin. Maybe I'm mincing words, but 'bending forward' needs to defined as it's often the source of a lot of misunderstanding and poor snow ski performance.

:beercheer:
 
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T-Square

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Not mincing words at all. How many times when someone says 'get forward' does the student bend at the waist? Words and definitions are very important. Their meaning provides direction. As instructors we need to choose words wisely.
 

oisin

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Not mincing words at all. How many times when someone says 'get forward' does the student bend at the waist? Words and definitions are very important. Their meaning provides direction. As instructors we need to choose words wisely.

Bending forward at the waist in angulation is actually bending laterally or at least that is what it appears to be. I don't like to suggest anyone "get forward". Its counter intuitive anyway because it seems to the student to be destabilizing. Its one of those things people are forever trying to do in response to some poor advice just as they are always trying to "bend sideways" in order to angulate. Its never a good idea to leave a student with a goal which is not specific or based upon an improper understanding of what is required. I wouldn't suggest that anyone attempt to angulate by bending forward at the waist either. Any attempt at angulating requires first that a student develop a degree of upper and lower body separation. Its pointless to attempt it as if assuming a pose were the goal. For most students learning to angulate requires a careful retraining. Its not that difficult a progression if proper use of leg rotation has been a part of their skiing since day one but for most it has not.

Remedying a poor stance is another topic I think.
 

T-Square

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Agree, skiing is dynamic, you are constantly changing position in order to maintain balance. Holding a single position is nothing more than park and ride.
 
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